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Apr 06, 2019, 05:22 AM
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Rulechanges from January 2020


Dear friends,
The following rules have been voted for at the CIAM meeting today, 6. of April, with some ammendments.
I'll give you the short details about what was agreed on.
The letter refers to the letter in the CIAM agenda (and in this thread: https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...ules-Proposals):

n) Midair collision during start gives reflight to those involved.
o) flight time will be measured in tenths of seconds.
p) preperation time on ground for 60 seconds before working time.
q) signaling at the end og the testing time.
r) testing time of 45 seconds.
s) drop after 12 rounds.
u) ladder replaced by new task "two flights only, 5 min max (2x5)" (equal to proposal z)).
v) poker changes to 3 calls only. Working time can be 10 OR 15 minutes.
x) new task: "one flight only".
y) Fly off task "Huge ladder - 3, 5, 7 minutes".

Enjoy

Thank you to everybody involved during the preperation of the proposals, and especially to Cedric Duss and Friedmar Richter for good discussions at the Technical meeting yesterday.
Erik Dahl Christensen
Denmark
Last edited by erikdahlchriste; Apr 06, 2019 at 07:33 AM.
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Apr 06, 2019, 06:25 AM
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Loet Wakkerman's Avatar
I think most off the rule changes will be bad for F3K.
Nowadays the average pilots can go home with a 75-85% score. With the new rule changes this will go down till let's say 50-60%. That won't be motivating to visit competitions anymore.
I think the top pilots will be disappointed too.
Imagine 10 rounds and no dropped score. This can mean 90% instead of 100% with an all in in poker going wrong. So in the future it will be flown as a 3x3.20 or less.

As the jury members are normally also flying it is hard to discuss a reflight after a mid air collision. It can and will be used tactically. The soaring pilot as being the target.

I expect less interest in F3K competition flying in the future. For both good and bad pilots.

Loet
Last edited by Loet Wakkerman; Apr 06, 2019 at 06:32 AM.
Apr 06, 2019, 06:43 AM
In F3J size does matter!
roydor's Avatar
Good thing we still have “local rules” for local competitions...
The only rule I truly agree with is the tenth of second rule. The rest I agree with Loet 100%, these will not serve the average pilot.
Apr 06, 2019, 06:48 AM
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eitanro's Avatar
Most of the changes are irrelevant for small and medium sized local competitions (most of them are 2 days long and don't have 12 rounds in them), these rules won't be implemented for contests other than EU and WC championships.

Eitan
Apr 06, 2019, 07:02 AM
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Thread OP
Hi Loet,
Thanks for you comment. I feel it is important to remember that the F3K rules are only mandatory for WC, EC and FAI santioned contests. For any local, club or even national contests, anybody can make the local rules they want. This also means tweaking the tasks, using old task from the beginning of HLG untill today. Realising this you can make a local contest that makes it easier for newcommers, to achieve the kind of scores YOU wishes for.

Be also aware that a Contest Director can choose only the tasks that also exsisted before 2020. The only task removed is ladder. The others are new extra tasks. You can of course fly contests without using ALL tasks. You can also make non-FAI contest with drops after 3-4-5-6 rounds if you wish. It's still a free world

The following is absolutely NOT an attack on Schwizerland nor on Cedric Duss! It is merely a description of how a proces can take different direction during time. Cedric made his proposols that he feels and argumented for, as he of course thinks that it is the right way to move. Others have other oppinions. I respect Cedric and his work.

About the rule changes, it is important to know how the CIAM meeting works. I'll give you some of the details of the proces of the rulechange for Midairs:

The proposal was made by Schwizerland.
It was debated by Cedric, I and others in the autumn of 2018 before 15th of November. Anybody can put forward a proposal if they can get it through their national system.
The proposal was voted for in the Soaring Subcomitee in march 2019 (7 for, 6 against).
It was discussed friday 6th of April 2019 at the technical meeting in Lausanne and voted for (2 for, 3 against, 3 abstain).
Therefor it was not recomended by the Soaring subcomitee chairman, Tomas Bartovsky. Normally this means that a proposal gets rejected.
But at the plenary meeting someone wanted it voted for.
19 countries voted for, 8 against, 13 abstained.

Hereby the proposal was agreed upon by the CIAM plenary meeting, no matter the recomandation by the Subcomitee chairman.

From this you can see, that it is very important that all delegates are well prepared and well instructed by their national pilots before the CIAM plenary meeting
Last edited by erikdahlchriste; Apr 06, 2019 at 07:19 AM.
Apr 06, 2019, 07:10 AM
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Loet Wakkerman's Avatar
It didn't help that our delegate was well instructed.

It's almost a pity that we have so much nice FAI competitions in Europe.

Let's see what happens in the future, I hope I am wrong. I prefer F3K over F5J right now.

Loet
Apr 06, 2019, 07:26 AM
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Thread OP
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loet Wakkerman
It didn't help that our delegate was well instructed.
Loet
It's pretty hard to controll more than one delegate
Apr 06, 2019, 07:41 AM
I don't want to "Switch Now"
pmackenzie's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loet Wakkerman
I think most off the rule changes will be bad for F3K.
Nowadays the average pilots can go home with a 75-85% score. With the new rule changes this will go down till let's say 50-60%. That won't be motivating to visit competitions anymore.
I think the top pilots will be disappointed too.
Imagine 10 rounds and no dropped score. This can mean 90% instead of 100% with an all in in poker going wrong. So in the future it will be flown as a 3x3.20 or less.

As the jury members are normally also flying it is hard to discuss a reflight after a mid air collision. It can and will be used tactically. The soaring pilot as being the target.

I expect less interest in F3K competition flying in the future. For both good and bad pilots.

Loet
I agree. These task changes might result in small changes in separation near the top, but a chasm between top flyers and rest of the field.
One "lucky" flight in "last flight" for example could could bury an entire group. How much fun will it be to score a 200 in a round and have to carry that forward?

As far as the argument that "local rules can prevail", the whole point of flying F3K is that you are flying by the rules.

We have already seen that F3J in the US is (for now at least) basically TD-J, since the stupid minimum loading rule is being ignored.
Apr 06, 2019, 07:42 AM
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eitanro's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by erikdahlchriste
Hi Loet,
Thanks for you comment. I feel it is important to remember that the F3K rules are only mandatory for WC, EC and FAI santioned contests. For any local, club or even national contests, anybody can make the local rules they want. This also means tweaking the tasks, using old task from the beginning of HLG untill today. Realising this you can make a local contest that makes it easier for newcommers, to achieve the kind of scores YOU wishes for.
Erik,
Of course we can do that, but then what's the point of having FAI rules (that are complicated enough as is)? You can't have local contest to be so different from the FAI rules...
I feel like the FAI rules are getting more and more disconnected from the average competitive pilot and don't realize that the rules have to be implementable during local contests (with some minor changes and not big changes).

I have to agree with Loet, the new changes make the contests more complicated and less attractive to new pilots.

Eitan
Apr 06, 2019, 07:46 AM
Time for me to Fly...
Mr. Wiz's Avatar
Timing to the tenth... Good
Fewer drops.... Good
More tasks to choose from... Good
Dropping the ladder and all the rest of the changes... bad

I think I’ll just keep using the current rules for any contests that I run.
Latest blog entry: The latest and greatest
Apr 06, 2019, 07:56 AM
Time for me to Fly...
Mr. Wiz's Avatar
I’m glad I spent my r/c airplane money on F5J planes this year instead of new DLG’s. F3K was already declining. With this gap between local rules and FAI, I predict deeper decline in interest.
Latest blog entry: The latest and greatest
Apr 06, 2019, 08:14 AM
Wayne Wimbish
wdwimbish's Avatar
We have a local contest today with local rules. Will have a drop after every round. Everbody wins.
Latest blog entry: Paying for Purchases by PayPal
Apr 06, 2019, 08:24 AM
Registered User
Thread OP
I'm happy that I have informed you about the changes and the process ASAP after the votings here in Lausanne. During the last years I have tried to do just that - inform as early as possible. I realise that the risc in doing so, is that it give people the possibility to express the oppinions just after the descisions.

Many of you know that this years changes have been origined from a 4 year proces starting at the technical meeting at the F3K WC 2015 in Croatia. One of the goals was to make more sepparation in the top. More sepparation means either that the master can show his skills over others or that some has the risc of failing beeing the master. This does of course also mean that a less skilled pilot can shine if lucky og fail more. On the other hand I'd love to see ideas on how to make good sepparation in the top and at the same time have new-commers make great scores not too far from the masters?

A group was formed at the technical meeting in Croatia 2015 and they had thankfully mixed oppinions, and ideas from the competitors were discussed. Some were proposed in 2017 and some of them agreed upon, and some were discussed even further and agreed upon at the technical meeting at the F3K WC 2017 in Ukraine. with majority and some in general form.

This has been the process and I have always been pretty public about the work. For instance the proposals were emailed to even more people before 15th of november 2018. I'm not whining about the critics, it is always great to give people a possibility to express their oppinion, but as always it's more productive to be active before a subject is proposed and agreed upon, and less productive after. Democracy is also about taking part

Cheers
Erik
Apr 06, 2019, 08:57 AM
I don't want to "Switch Now"
pmackenzie's Avatar
The thing is, these were discussed on here last fall, and pretty much the same points were raised. As with the F3J loading rule change, this dissent was ignored by those pushing the rules changes forward.

What needs to be done before such changes IMO is for them to be subject to tests and review.
Have they had the desired result ( more seperation at the top)
Have there been unintended results? (lower participation, increase in mid-airs, etc)

This is the third event I fly that has seen what to me are big and negative rule changes in the last two years, with poor arguments in favor of them.

Probably will never fly F3J contests again because of the last changes.

Don't want the same thing to happen to me for K, but it might.
Apr 06, 2019, 09:23 AM
In F3J size does matter!
roydor's Avatar
Separation is a function of conditions, not tasks. If the conditions are excellent, in a world championship level competition you will find over 20 pilots with less than 1% separation from the top regardless of the tasks.

My problem with the direction the class is going is that itís becoming too complicated. I was telling a new Soaring pilot about the class a while back, before these rule changes, and he asked me how can I remember all the tasks, to him it was too many tasks with too many rules. Thinking about it I can see exactly what he means.

As for Democracy, it feels to me like a well organized and self motivated minority is pushing the class into a self interested direction with little regard to the opinion of others. Either the rest of us work together to reverse these trends or we move to the next class before it starts to suffer the same fate. The second scenario is more likely to happen...

My suggestion for the future is that future rule changes are tested for a session before changes are made officially.


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