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Sep 21, 2019, 07:10 AM
Registered User
Cyclone 7's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ridgerunr
There is a LOT of activity in the "Micro Helis" RCG Forum - (more than on HF for the micros).
Yes I am aware of that - a very enthusiastic bunch but since I am not into the Micro scene, I was referring to this sub-forum(Heli Talk) which seems to contain more and more 'un-heli-related drivel' threads by the day.
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Sep 21, 2019, 07:22 AM
Grumpy old git.. Who me?
JetPlaneFlyer's Avatar
Thread OP
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Doggs
So what is the ready to fly weight of the 600? -(and the 550, for that matter)
Without batteries my 600 is 2750g. This is pretty light but it could easy be made lighter as I have a 700 class motor and a 130A ESC installed.
Sep 21, 2019, 12:06 PM
Turnigynarian
2Doggs's Avatar
So with batteries, perhaps 3500g? That's not heavy for a 600, but not particularly light.

I like the simplicity of the drivetrain, but would prefer a dual-point tail mech, and the use of integrated plastic ball links in the tail grips is surprising. It will be interesting to see how long the links last.

I'd like to see more helis use an OWB in the pinion, as per the Protos and Forza 450, which really simplifies the main and tail drive gears and saves weight, tho perhaps at the expense of a slightly larger maingear.
Sep 21, 2019, 04:09 PM
Team Compass/KBDD Team Pilot
Ah Clem's Avatar
More from Buzzin' the Border...

The orange machine belongs to Scott214-he did a superb building job!
Last edited by Ah Clem; Sep 21, 2019 at 04:27 PM.
Sep 21, 2019, 08:35 PM
Registered User
Atomic Skull's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Doggs

I like the simplicity of the drivetrain, but would prefer a dual-point tail mech, and the use of integrated plastic ball links in the tail grips is surprising. It will be interesting to see how long the links last.
They should last a long time because plastic on plastic doesn't wear as fast as plastic on metal. Mikado has been using a similar design since forever.

Tarot has designed a two sided slider which will probbaly be offered as an upgrade. A well designed single sided slider can be as good, my TSA 700E has a single sided slider that has less slop in it than the two sided slider on my Trex 550. On the TSA 700 bellcrack it pops onto the ball like a ball link. It's not as tight as an actual ball link but you can feel the plastic socket pop into place over the ball on the pitch slider when you assemble it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Doggs
I'd like to see more helis use an OWB in the pinion, as per the Protos and Forza 450, which really simplifies the main and tail drive gears and saves weight, tho perhaps at the expense of a slightly larger maingear.
It doesn't seem to work as well with big helicopters. Miniature Aircraft tried it with the Whiplash and the clutch in the pinion needed to be replaced every 100 flights or so. In the Whiplash II they switched back to a regular clutch in the maingear for this reason. Apparently it's not possible to make a one way bearing that can handle both the RPM and torque involved. They actually had a special one way bearing made when the problems emerged and it still only lasted 200-300 flights before needing replacement.
Last edited by Atomic Skull; Sep 21, 2019 at 08:50 PM.
Sep 21, 2019, 10:21 PM
Turnigynarian
2Doggs's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomic Skull
It doesn't seem to work as well with big helicopters. Miniature Aircraft tried it with the Whiplash and the clutch in the pinion needed to be replaced every 100 flights or so. In the Whiplash II they switched back to a regular clutch in the maingear for this reason. Apparently it's not possible to make a one way bearing that can handle both the RPM and torque involved. They actually had a special one way bearing made when the problems emerged and it still only lasted 200-300 flights before needing replacement.
That's disappointing, but it looks like the Whiplash was/is a 700 size nitro, with an odd sort of floating arrangement of a pinion as part of the clutch bell assembly. The Protos certainly proves that the OWB-in-pinion concept works up to 430 size "500" helis, and perhaps that's the upper limit of practicality. Intuitively, you'd think torque would be the OWB killer rather than speed. When I first started flying gov mode on my HK450 pros, I could wear out the conventional maingear-mounted OWB in just a few flights by flipping between flight modes with widely different throttle on a TX without a throttle delay feature, and flight data logs showed huge current spikes at those abrupt transitions.
Sep 22, 2019, 12:46 AM
Registered User
2 Dogs - I can't remeber if you had a Mini Protos or not??? Although the OWB in the pinion worked OK in the Protos it was not successful on the Mini Protos - there was not enough "meat" in the pinion around the OWB and the pinions were very prone to splitting with powerfull set-ups - or just after a bit of wear.

MSH came out (eventually) with a V2 of the pinion that was very expensive but the two that I bought kept locking up solid - the OWB failed completely in one eventually. The problem was only really resolved when Lynx came out with a solid pinion
Sep 22, 2019, 07:18 AM
Turnigynarian
2Doggs's Avatar

Design choices


Hi Mike, my Protos is the 500, and I run the stretch boom and 430 wide chord blades, "hard sport" flying at about HS2700, 6 minute flights from a 2700 pack.

I don't use the 13t pinion, which used a 4mm OWB and a different motor adaptor - I know that people had trouble with the OWB's failing on that setup, running 470 blades.

Sounds like MSH got the mini Protos pinion design wrong, then. Strange that they didn't pick up on it in testing, especially with the tendency to use smack test pilots. With belt drive, perhaps the next belt pitch increase would have been too much, and they were too ambitious on the minimum number of teeth for the pinion, perhaps in an effort to minimise the main pulley diameter, or to work with standard available belt lengths.
Last edited by 2Doggs; Sep 22, 2019 at 07:23 AM. Reason: typo
Sep 22, 2019, 07:21 AM
Registered User
Quote:
Tarot has designed a two sided slider which will probbaly be offered as an upgrade. A well designed single sided slider can be as good, my TSA 700E has a single sided slider that has less slop in it than the two sided slider on my Trex 550. On the TSA 700 bellcrack it pops onto the ball like a ball link. It's not as tight as an actual ball link but you can feel the plastic socket pop into place over the ball on the pitch slider when you assemble it.
This topic was brought up early on. The negative aspect of a single side slider point is the angular deflection to the slider sleeve which would wear out quicker that any ball, but the number of uses before degradation would occur is many the larger the unit is. Those 450 single side sliders wore out because being smaller, dirt was easier to get trapped and there was less material to wear out. A few crashes later and the single side slider would be compromised while a fork style would hold up better to abuse.
Sep 22, 2019, 12:35 PM
homo ludens modellisticus
Ron van Sommeren's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by JetPlaneFlyer
... the battery wires would need extending (which is bad for the ESC capacitors) ...
More info in
Too long battery wires can kill ESC: precautions, solutions & workarounds - RCG

Prettig weekend Ron
• Without a watt-meter you are in the dark ... until something starts to glow •
e-flight calculatorswatt-metersdiy motor tips&tricksCumulus MFC
Sep 22, 2019, 04:08 PM
Grumpy old git.. Who me?
JetPlaneFlyer's Avatar
Thread OP
Some Tarot flying today
Sep 22, 2019, 04:13 PM
Registered User
Atomic Skull's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Doggs
That's disappointing, but it looks like the Whiplash was/is a 700 size nitro, with an odd sort of floating arrangement of a pinion as part of the clutch bell assembly. The Protos certainly proves that the OWB-in-pinion concept works up to 430 size "500" helis, and perhaps that's the upper limit of practicality. Intuitively, you'd think torque would be the OWB killer rather than speed. When I first started flying gov mode on my HK450 pros, I could wear out the conventional maingear-mounted OWB in just a few flights by flipping between flight modes with widely different throttle on a TX without a throttle delay feature, and flight data logs showed huge current spikes at those abrupt transitions.
The Whiplash came in nitro gasoline and electric versions. Not sure if the new owners are going to release a nitro or electric version of the Whiplash II, so far they only seem interested in the gasoline version. There are plenty of electric and nitro models they would have to compete with while it's basically the only "out of the box" gasoline helicopter on the market right now so maybe they figure it's best to sell in a market segment with no real competition.
Sep 22, 2019, 04:16 PM
Teleport User
Vaygre's Avatar
Nooooiiceee! I like them all . Cool shot Sir JPF
Sep 22, 2019, 07:18 PM
Team Compass/KBDD Team Pilot
Ah Clem's Avatar
Some scary-looking, old guy pointing to the final WR Hercules Super Pro BEC location on the Tarot 600.

This worked out well, kept additional wiring to a minimum, allowed lots of air circulation over the BEC, and worked flawlessly in flight.
Sep 22, 2019, 08:52 PM
I fly, therefore, I crash!!!
SteveT.'s Avatar
You're not even close to being as scary looking as I am!!

SteveT.
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