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Mar 17, 2019, 12:23 AM
If it flies, I can crash it.
rocketsled666's Avatar
But the question wasn't about cost, it was about efficiency. It costs less to turn oil in to electricity because it's a bulk process. But that conversion in to power at the car's wheels has a certain efficiency. According to the web, oil fired plants are about 35% efficient. Then, that energy has to be transmitted from the power plant over 100s or 1000s of miles of wire, through transformers, to get to the point where it's charging the car. All those wires and transformers get hot because they're dissipating power and that's power that's not getting to the end point. I couldn't find any simple number for transmission line efficiency but it's not very good. High tension lines can sag 10s of feet from expansion as they heat up under load. Say it's 80% efficient. So that 35% conversion-to-electricity factor at the power plant is now only 28% efficient at the charger outlet. That's already lower than the efficiency mentioned a few posts back for an ICE, 30%. But the electric car isn't 100% efficient, either. It's going to dissipate power as heat during charging and it's going to dissipate power as heat during discharge. That's lost efficiency. Say that's 80% efficient. Now the overall efficiency (measured from unburned oil to turning the car's wheels) is only 22%. So if you just put that oil in to the car and burned it, you'd be 30%. ICE wins. It has less of an environmental impact.

Totally ignoring the impact associated with refining gasoline vs. the heavy fuel oil they use in a power plant. Gas is a lot more energy consumptive of a process. And gas has to be distributed. There are pipelines crisscrossing the country. Pumps use electricity which has to come from somewhere. And all the trucks that have to carry the fuel from distribution points to the 10Ks of gas stations. And the energy those distribution points gas stations. And probably a bunch of other stuff I didn't think of. Power plants are either connected to a pipe or their coal/oil is delivered by rail. And there aren't that many power plants.

So this was my point - It's not as clear as electric motor efficiency vs. ICE efficiency.

And since this is way off topic, I swear this is my last post on the subject.
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Mar 17, 2019, 05:10 PM
Registered User
I got my hands on a Hyperion G8 4S 1400mAh and have been testing it this weekend.

I am flying FPV race quads.
My findings are that this battery has a useful capacity when charged to 4.2V and flown down to 3.5V per cell of about 1000mAh. When charged to 4.35V per cell I can get around 1100mAh out of it.

Also, the voltage sag under load and punchouts is a lot larger than for example Hobbyking Turnigy Graphene 4S 1300mAh 65C or GensAce Tattu R-Line 95C or CNHL Ministar 120C.

Out of these 3 comparable batteries, I can get out around 1200-1250mAh until 3.5V.




Only good thing about the Hyperion G8 battery is the really low weight, but my guess is that they are in reality 4S 1100mAh batteries or 4S 1200mAh HV batteries, therefore the low weight compared to other batteries of the same size.

For FPV Racing, these batteries are of no use to me. Maybe good for low power planes or boats or something.
The price of $34.95 is even more expensive than some of the best FPV Racer batteries.
Mar 17, 2019, 07:42 PM
Suspended Account
Quote:
Originally Posted by gorro
Only good thing about the Hyperion G8 battery is the really low weight, but my guess is that they are in reality 4S 1100mAh batteries or 4S 1200mAh HV batteries, therefore the low weight compared to other batteries of the same size.
if there is a way to prove that's 100% right then it's a scam and not the electric cars as he pointed out above.
what I shame I said 85% is pure marketing but I was so much wrong I shoud have said 99%
Mar 17, 2019, 07:46 PM
Suspended Account
Quote:
Originally Posted by gorro
The price of $34.95 is even more expensive than some of the best FPV Racer batteries.
Yep, the Turnigy battery is only $21. what is/are your favorite packs ever ?
Mar 17, 2019, 09:49 PM
Thread OP
Quote:
Originally Posted by itsmillertime
I bought 6 of the new g8 900mah 4s packs. Not too impressed with them. Even less impressed with the g7 4s 2400 packs. https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...away-from-them
The G7 we were helping you with your claim, as mentioned to you in email just now, your customer ticket was closed because our system didnt receive a response directly and expired, we didn't close your ticket, our system did it automatically. If you can reply back to us via email, send us the video that we requested to you for your G7 claim then we can help you.

Also, do not bash G8 because had some issues with G7 (they are completely different chemistry). At the moment with the information you provided us so far it shows that your ESC did not recognize the HV packs properly and went into the wrong Low-voltage cutoff settings. This is why we're thinking you have the issues.

Please delete your posts and then we can help you.
Last edited by HyperionRocks; Mar 17, 2019 at 10:28 PM.
Mar 17, 2019, 10:27 PM
Thread OP
Quote:
Originally Posted by reverse
if there is a way to prove that's 100% right then it's a scam and not the electric cars as he pointed out above.
what I shame I said 85% is pure marketing but I was so much wrong I shoud have said 99%

You have no idea what you're talking about.

The electric grid infrastructure was initially designed for small electronics, only for small appliances such as toasters, etc. If everyone had a electric car and charged them simultaneously there would be no way our powerlines and power plants could support this. We would need gigawatts of electricity per city block. To deliver that amount of power, the power lines behind your house would need to be as thick as a 55 gallon drum. The laws of scale are disproportionate in electricity, just because you need 2x more energy, doesn't mean you need only 2x larger wires and power plants to support, there are inefficiencies that exponentially increase when you scale something of this magnitude.

The amount of steel, refining, manwork, and resources to build such a heavy-duty Power line and powerplant infrastructure in ever country in the world would deplete our resources. This would cost trillions. Not to mention, everyone would have even more cancer and defects due to electromagnetic radiation (emr) caused by powerlines. You think you hear the powerline humming now? if everyone has electric cars it would cause the hair on your head stick up within 50~100 yards. You would also need to build many more power plants, these are mostly coal-powered, they are abut 33% efficient. Then there is the mining and manufacturing of the battery. Lithium and Cobalt are rare-earth metals that mostly found in China.

Then there is a law of energy conversion, everytime one form of energy is converted into a new type it loses efficiency. The amount of steps and resources to make a Gas engine car run compared to Electric cars is much different.

-Gasoline Car Energy Conversion Steps:

1. Pumped out of the ground
2. Refined and Distributed
3. Engine Combustion = Power

AND THEN

-Electric Car Energy Conversion Steps:
1. Rare Earth Materials are mined in China, Lithium and Cobalt, Neodymium
2. Rare Earth is processed to substrate materials
3. Raw-Materials are shipped to a factory to be assembled (USA plant)
4. Materials are manufactured into a battery, said battery is installed into a electric car
5. Coal is burned at a power plant to produce electricity = 33 ~ 40% efficiency ONLY!
6. AC Power is sent from a power plant 10 miles always to your Charger, causing a 10~15% loss in efficiency
7. The charger converts from AC to DC and chargers the cells, causing a 10~15% loss in efficiency
8. Stored Power is sent to your electric motors, resulting in 5~10% loss in efficiency.
(All these inefficiencies compounded together make even a lower number)


Not to mention most lithium batteries have a 5~7 year lifespan, they are very difficult to recycle and will cause huge waste issues in the future. And other materials such as Neodymium for motors and etc are extremely rare, etc. Electric cars is not the answer.
Last edited by HyperionRocks; Mar 17, 2019 at 11:16 PM.
Mar 17, 2019, 10:51 PM
If it flies, I can crash it.
rocketsled666's Avatar
If you have an electric car with a 75KWh battery, and you're delivering 240V to the end point where you're doing the charging, you need over 300A to charge that battery in one hour. Multiply by a dozen of your neighbors and you're talking about 3750A. Convert to superchargers that do the job in 30 minutes, you need 7500A. Now add the people on the surrounding block, who are all on the same substation. Suddenly you need 5-10x more power at the substation than you needed before. The infrastructure won't handle that kind of load. The utility network needs upgrades to support an electric car infrastructure. Until it has them, charging at home is going to remain an overnight affair and superchargers will only be located where there's a substation that can handle the power demand...
Mar 18, 2019, 02:30 AM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by HyperionRocks
...... I suggest you to look at our G5 value line, we have customers that purchased packs almost 10 years ago that still say they are running strong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HyperionRocks

Not to mention most lithium batteries have a 5~7 year lifespan, they are very difficult to recycle and will cause huge waste issues in the future.
You guys are really in the battery making business?
Last edited by gorro; Mar 18, 2019 at 02:40 AM.
Mar 18, 2019, 02:36 AM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by HyperionRocks
1. Rare Earth Materials are mined in China, Lithium and Cobalt, Neodymium
Lithium and Cobalt aren't rare earth elements (not materials), they're metals.
World's largest lithium producer is Australia (18400 metric tonnes per year) followed by Chile (14100 metric tonnes). China is far back (3000 metric tonnes).

The 17 rare-earth elements are cerium (Ce), dysprosium (Dy), erbium (Er), europium (Eu), gadolinium (Gd), holmium (Ho), lanthanum (La), lutetium (Lu), neodymium (Nd), praseodymium (Pr), promethium (Pm), samarium (Sm), scandium (Sc), terbium (Tb), thulium (Tm), ytterbium (Yb), and yttrium (Y).

You guys (Hyperion) are really in the battery making business?
Last edited by gorro; Mar 18, 2019 at 02:43 AM.
Mar 18, 2019, 05:53 AM
Registered User
atreis's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by rocketsled666
If you have an electric car with a 75KWh battery, and you're delivering 240V to the end point where you're doing the charging, you need over 300A to charge that battery in one hour. Multiply by a dozen of your neighbors and you're talking about 3750A. Convert to superchargers that do the job in 30 minutes, you need 7500A. Now add the people on the surrounding block, who are all on the same substation. Suddenly you need 5-10x more power at the substation than you needed before. The infrastructure won't handle that kind of load. The utility network needs upgrades to support an electric car infrastructure. Until it has them, charging at home is going to remain an overnight affair and superchargers will only be located where there's a substation that can handle the power demand...
The vast majority of the time, you (and your neighbors) wouldn't need to charge the cars in an hour (or half hour) at home. That would primarily be needed at dispersed locations en route for longer trips, spreading that sort of demand out geographically. One might occasionally do that at home, but not very often, and not likely at the same time as all of your neighbors. (Most newer houses are setup to handle a maximum of 300 amps anyway. Many older houses can only handle 200 amps.)

As for total amps to a neighborhood, the power lines to residential neighborhoods aren't operating at in-house line voltage. They're at a higher voltage in order to reduce the current that the wires need to carry. That's why there's a transformer right before the lines go to the house. If needed, it would be theoretically possible to increase that voltage in order to supply more power without having to increase the wire diameter of the utility service, but that would require replacing the transformers, which would be costly too. If that's necessary it would be done a little at a time to amortize out the cost, probably starting with new construction.
Mar 18, 2019, 08:28 AM
Suspended Account
Quote:
Originally Posted by HyperionRocks
Please delete your posts and then we can help you.
it's done

https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...away-from-them

https://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=825515
Mar 18, 2019, 01:04 PM
Thread OP
Quote:
Originally Posted by gorro
I got my hands on a Hyperion G8 4S 1400mAh and have been testing it this weekend.

I am flying FPV race quads.
My findings are that this battery has a useful capacity when charged to 4.2V and flown down to 3.5V per cell of about 1000mAh. When charged to 4.35V per cell I can get around 1100mAh out of it.

Also, the voltage sag under load and punchouts is a lot larger than for example Hobbyking Turnigy Graphene 4S 1300mAh 65C or GensAce Tattu R-Line 95C or CNHL Ministar 120C.

Out of these 3 comparable batteries, I can get out around 1200-1250mAh until 3.5V.


Only good thing about the Hyperion G8 battery is the really low weight, but my guess is that they are in reality 4S 1100mAh batteries or 4S 1200mAh HV batteries, therefore the low weight compared to other batteries of the same size.

For FPV Racing, these batteries are of no use to me. Maybe good for low power planes or boats or something.
The price of $34.95 is even more expensive than some of the best FPV Racer batteries.

You should be comparing size and weight to the other packs. Our 1400mah battery is the size of a 1100~1200mah cell. If you took our 1600 or 1800mah cell and compared to the other brands 1400mah then you'd be able to see were the same weight (or less), have more capacity, and more discharge rate.

When discharging the cell down to 3.5v there is still about 15~20% remaining capacity, so your packs have a true 1400mah capacity.
Last edited by HyperionRocks; Mar 18, 2019 at 01:17 PM.
Mar 18, 2019, 01:16 PM
Thread OP
Quote:
Originally Posted by gorro
You guys are really in the battery making business?
ALL lithium batteries typically expire after 5~7 years use, depending on temp, cycles, application. It's there nature to oxidize and corrode, that's what batteries do. Though, our customers with G3 cells (G3 and G5 use the same chemistry) have been known to get up to 10 years lifespan. That's because high-quality substrate materials, that's good.

I haven't looked up the mining and import statistics of earth elements recently, as they have changed over the past 5+ years (but I do know our materials costs keeps increasing!). No matter what, Lithium deposits are usually scattered and thin, the are known to be rare, since the commercially viable Lithium deposits are few. China is the largest importer of these materials specifically to make batteries, they are also the second highest producer of cobalt. China is the second largest producer of Cobalt and mines more than 80% of the worlds neodymium
Last edited by HyperionRocks; Mar 18, 2019 at 02:08 PM.
Mar 19, 2019, 04:07 AM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by HyperionRocks
You should be comparing size and weight to the other packs. Our 1400mah battery is the size of a 1100~1200mah cell. If you took our 1600 or 1800mah cell and compared to the other brands 1400mah then you'd be able to see were the same weight (or less), have more capacity, and more discharge rate.

When discharging the cell down to 3.5v there is still about 15~20% remaining capacity, so your packs have a true 1400mah capacity.
I get more usable capacity from other 1300 or 1400mAh packs such as Tattu R-Line or Turnigy Graphene than your Hyperion G8 4S 1400mAh.

I usually fly 4S down to 14V, with Tattu R-Line or Graphene I get ~1300mAh according to telemetry. Those batteries are known to have great voltage stability under load.
The same process with Hyperion G8 results in ~1100mAh. They seem to be not the type of batteries I need for high current FPV application.
Mar 19, 2019, 02:44 PM
Thread OP
Quote:
Originally Posted by gorro
I get more usable capacity from other 1300 or 1400mAh packs such as Tattu R-Line or Turnigy Graphene than your Hyperion G8 4S 1400mAh.

I usually fly 4S down to 14V, with Tattu R-Line or Graphene I get ~1300mAh according to telemetry. Those batteries are known to have great voltage stability under load.
The same process with Hyperion G8 results in ~1100mAh. They seem to be not the type of batteries I need for high current FPV application.
Seems like your pack is slightly undersized (but lightweight) for your application, I'd recommend running a slightly larger mah pack. A larger cell/mAh size will be able to handle more amperage.

Our G8 4s 1800 30C pack weighs 156 grams and will give you more usable capacity. The 1300mah R-line weighs 173 grams.

How many amps are you pulling?


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