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Feb 08, 2019, 08:04 PM
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E-85 and Glow Engines


I hope you'all find this interesting. I have been experimenting with getting a glow engine to run on E-85 with oil. My first attempts didn't go so well as you can imagine. I was using an older engine (Magnum GP .65) on an older plane (PT-40) and even with 20% Klotz oil in the fuel the engine ran hot and would not idle because of being too lean. The high speed could be adjusted at full throttle and was set best with an OS-F plug but the engine would not run at half throttle or at idle.
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As with many attempts to run glow engines on gasoline the problem was that the higher energy of the fuel requires a leaner high speed needle setting and then the low speed/idle requires a richer setting with a special carb or pump to get enough fuel to the engine.

E-85 has 15% gasoline in it and the rest is ethyl alcohol. The cost of E-85 is about $2.50 a gallon. Can you imagine the savings even with adding rather expensive 2-cycle racing oil like Klotz Super Techniplate at about $18.00 a quart? That was my hope, to make a glow fuel that cost about $10.00 per gallon to make.

Anyway, I did find a good formula to run glow engines on but I had to blend the E-85 with regular Glow Fuel. The blend is a 50/50 mixture. The first part is E-85 (with 20% Klotz oil added) mixed with an equal portion of 15% Glow Fuel. This combination fuel runs good and cool and does not seem to have affected the silicone tubing or the stopper in the tank over the 4 months tested.

The 50/50 fuel has slightly less power than regular glow fuel but is a good substitute for straight glow fuel and cheaper to run. The only adjustments to the carb that are needed is to set the high speed needle and then richen up the low speed/midrange a lot.
Couple of short videos here.
E-85 + Glow Fuel (0 min 34 sec)

E85 + glow fuel flight (0 min 59 sec)


As a side note some time ago OS made some 2-cycle engines that ran on ethanol, mostly for the South American market, and they made their own ethanol based glow fuel. I am not sure what all the differences in the engines were or what the formula for the fuel was but they said the fuel was something like 'all natural' and 'non-polluting'. Here is a link. http://www.os-engines.co.jp/english/bio_eng/
Last edited by JimboPilotFL; Feb 08, 2019 at 08:14 PM.
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Feb 08, 2019, 08:57 PM
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That plane seems to run great just like normal. On the other forum there were some guys experimenting with ethanol, and gas/glow when converting weedwacker motors to glow fuel. It got rid of the points/magneto weight. To do it they made a conversion insert to use a glow plug. It seemed to work well, then they mixed gasoline to save $. I believe later on some guys used E85 straight. That was a while ago and then the chinese motors came along and everyone forgot about it. There was also a Norvel .40 that used a turbo style P3 extra hot plug and they used straight gasoline with 20%(?) castor. That required a different head. You can still buy the motor. There were different experiences with it, some good, some very bad. I think the e85 was OK on that too? You would have to try more experiments I think. The rod big end was a wear point to keep track of when using gasoline as it ran hotter especially with the dinosaur oils, and castor doesn't mix very well with gas. I believe some guys were using on board glow batteries to click on just at idle, or all the time when the motor would slow down when the battery clip was removed. I only mentioned this to save you some time. It could possibly waste much more time too. The results would be good to know and it would be nice if you post them.
Feb 08, 2019, 09:24 PM
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Sounds like it needs quite some time to spin up to full power (like multiple seconds almost) but other than that seems to me a very usable engine.

PS: the ethanol glow plug engines of OS used a glow plug with yet another thread size (not "turbo" plug thread, and not 1/4-32)
Feb 08, 2019, 10:43 PM
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earlwb's Avatar
You could try using the OS G5 glow plug with gasoline (E85 etc). That is the glow Plug that OS uses with their 10cc OS GGT10 engine. They don't need to do anything special for the fuel just oil and gasoline.

If your engine uses a turbo plug, then the OS P5 plug would work the same as the G5 plug.
The NV-Engines GX40 engine uses the P5 glow plug.

I forgot to add that in some cases you may have to change the carb to something more compatible with gasoline. Also the glow engines may have too high of compression to use with gasoline thus you may need a shim or two to lower the compression down some. A number of folks ran into the compression issue as some glow engines run really high compression ratios as methanol will let them do it but not gasoline.

Some carbs to maybe get and use is the carb for the NV-engines GX40, the OS GGT10, or the NGH 9cc gas engines. One could make an adapter and use a small bore Walbro carb too.
Last edited by earlwb; Feb 08, 2019 at 10:47 PM. Reason: add more info
Feb 08, 2019, 10:51 PM
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SeismicCWave's Avatar
>> hope you'all find this interesting.<<

I have been testing a lot of engines to run on E85 and E98 fuel.

https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...alternate-fuel

https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...hanol-%28BE%29

I also have three OS Bio Ethanol engines I bought from Singapore Hobbies. O.S. Makes 4 Bio Ethanol engines with their AX series. The .35, .55, .75 and 1.20. They use a metric 6mm special plug for the Ethanol fuel.

I also ran this on E85:

https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...n-on-Flex-Fuel

....and I ran this on E85:

https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...asoline-engine

I also ran all my Super Tigre ST3000 and 2500 on gasoline, E85, E98 and Methanol.

https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...uel-conversion

>>Anyway, I did find a good formula to run glow engines on but I had to blend the E-85 with regular Glow Fuel. The blend is a 50/50 mixture. The first part is E-85 (with 20% Klotz oil added) mixed with an equal portion of 15% Glow Fuel. This combination fuel runs good and cool and does not seem to have affected the silicone tubing or the stopper in the tank over the 4 months tested. <<

I don't recommend running Ethanol and Methanol mix. Another poster tried it and ran into quite a bit of problems.

Right now I am running mostly Methanol because I can get them cheaper than Ethanol but I still have 20 gallons left to play with.

The simple answer to running E85 or E98 is that the engine needs a high compression and a high glow plug or spark plug. A lot of my Rossi engines that were designed to run Methanol fuel with no nitro run very well on E85 or E98. I just needed to use a hotter plug. On the first thread linked I documented certain engines that I ran E85 and E98 with no issues.
Feb 09, 2019, 08:12 AM
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earlwb's Avatar
I almost forgot about it, but there are some locales in the US that have M85 gasoline. M85 is where they use methanol instead of ethanol in the gasoline mix. China is a big user of M85 so that is where most of it is. But there are some places in the US that sell M85. M85 ought to work with the regular glow plugs too. Maybe a step up in the heat range though.

http://www.altfuels.org/backgrnd/altftype/m85.shtml
Feb 09, 2019, 09:20 AM
Registered User
Thread OP
Very interesting input. I appreciate all of it, compression, mixtures, plugs, etc. It will take me some time to digest all of it. As far as what I am doing now, I will probably try running the 1/2 gallon of mix I have left in several different engines and see how they run. The over-all conclusion I got from the experiment though, was that it wasn't worth the effort or the $5 a gallon savings.

Obviously setting up a glow engine to run on E85 is a complicated matter and requires some modifications to the engine. - Thanks
Last edited by JimboPilotFL; Feb 09, 2019 at 09:25 AM.
Feb 09, 2019, 04:48 PM
Entropy is happening!
Jim.Thompson's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeismicCWave
.................................................. ........

>>Anyway, I did find a good formula to run glow engines on but I had to blend the E-85 with regular Glow Fuel. The blend is a 50/50 mixture. The first part is E-85 (with 20% Klotz oil added) mixed with an equal portion of 15% Glow Fuel. This combination fuel runs good and cool and does not seem to have affected the silicone tubing or the stopper in the tank over the 4 months tested. <<

I don't recommend running Ethanol and Methanol mix. ............................

...............................................
The two statements above appear to me to be contradictory.
Have I interpreted them wrongly?
Feb 09, 2019, 05:35 PM
Closed Account
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim.Thompson
The two statements above appear to me to be contradictory.
Have I interpreted them wrongly?
Only in that they are made by two different persons. JimboPilotFL is the one mixing E85 with glow fuel, and Seismic is recommending against thatů.
Feb 09, 2019, 08:02 PM
Registered User
downunder's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeismicCWave
I don't recommend running Ethanol and Methanol mix.
No reason why you shouldn't mix them because they're both alcohols although there's a difference in their air/fuel ratios but both have a catalytic reaction with glow plugs. In Australia we have what we call methylated spirits (called something different in other countries) which is 95% ethanol but mixed with 5% methanol to make it (supposedly) undrinkable. I tried it once in an ST 46 and, apart from being slightly harder to hand start, it worked perfectly.
Feb 09, 2019, 08:46 PM
AMA 46133
SeismicCWave's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by downunder
No reason why you shouldn't mix them because they're both alcohols although there's a difference in their air/fuel ratios but both have a catalytic reaction with glow plugs. In Australia we have what we call methylated spirits (called something different in other countries) which is 95% ethanol but mixed with 5% methanol to make it (supposedly) undrinkable. I tried it once in an ST 46 and, apart from being slightly harder to hand start, it worked perfectly.
I tried not to mix different fuel since I want to know how each fuel behaves. However There was a poster (sorry I don't remember his screen name) who was converting a Super Tigre ST3000 to run on E85. He complained about the engine surging when he ran it with a mixture of Methanol and Ethanol fuel. Once he went to pure E85 the surging disappeared. 95 percent ethanol with 5 percent methanol will not make much difference except for drinkability. Over here they mix 2 percent gasoline to 98 percent ethanol so we won't drink it. However when you mix close to 50/50 methanol and ethanol you may have a problem with tuning.

Plus I don't remember if the poster used pure methanol in the mix or he mixed in with pre-mixed glow fuel.
Feb 09, 2019, 08:50 PM
AMA 46133
SeismicCWave's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim.Thompson
The two statements above appear to me to be contradictory.
Have I interpreted them wrongly?
I have been using >>........<< to quote the poster's comment so I can answer them in context. So you were reading my answer to the quoted comment which is meant to be contradictory because I oppose the practice of mixing different fuel because that usually give unsatisfactory results.

I am not going to repeat everything I have done over the last year with my tests but I did attach all the links to my trials and tribulations. You are welcome to browse through them.
Feb 09, 2019, 09:36 PM
Entropy is happening!
Jim.Thompson's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeismicCWave
I have been using >>........<< to quote the poster's comment so I can answer them in context. So you were reading my answer to the quoted comment which is meant to be contradictory because I oppose the practice of mixing different fuel because that usually give unsatisfactory results. ..............
Ok. I did read it wrong...........all good then.
One tip you may or may not be receptive to, is to try using the more conventional way of quoting. Click on the quote tab, then follow through. End your quote with.....[/Quote] then write your response.
It may help both of us...........no, actually, it will help us readers more than the you, the author!......................

Quote:
I am not going to repeat everything I have done ........................
I don't expect you to do that, my enquiry was merely a question of communication techniques (to use a euphemism!).
However, I will search out more posts from you.
Thanks,

Jim.
Feb 10, 2019, 12:03 AM
AMA 46133
SeismicCWave's Avatar
>>One tip you may or may not be receptive to, is to try using the more conventional way of quoting. Click on the quote tab, then follow through. End your quote with.....[/Quote] then write your response.<<

Sorry that's the problem with old dogs. I have been on forums before all these forums were around. There was a thing called Compuserve back in the 80's and within Compuserve there was a ground called the Modelnet. I started doing quotes that way ever since. I cannot be bothered to learn how to quote when ever I go on a new "forum". Those were the days when hobbyists were friendly and helpful and we meet up in person once in a while.

Really makes no difference anyway. People just read what they want to read anyway so it does not matter what I write and how I write. Just look at some of the horrendous posts with all kinds of spelling mistakes and grammar errors and wrong logic. No one cares.
Feb 10, 2019, 02:06 AM
Closed Account
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeismicCWave
>>One tip you may or may not be receptive to, is to try using the more conventional way of quoting. Click on the quote tab, then follow through. End your quote with.....
then write your response.<<

Sorry that's the problem with old dogs. I have been on forums before all these forums were around. There was a thing called Compuserve back in the 80's and within Compuserve there was a ground called the Modelnet. I started doing quotes that way ever since. I cannot be bothered to learn how to quote when ever I go on a new "forum". Those were the days when hobbyists were friendly and helpful and we meet up in person once in a while.

Really makes no difference anyway. People just read what they want to read anyway so it does not matter what I write and how I write. Just look at some of the horrendous posts with all kinds of spelling mistakes and grammar errors and wrong logic. No one cares.[/QUOTE]


MY MESSAGE STARTS HERE:
Not to be grumpy, but....
Regardless of being an old dog or not, I consider myself as basically "digitally illiterate" and even I can simply click on the "quote" tab.

The thing is: you using your way, causes the piece of other peoples text you quoted to pop up in my post as something YOU said .

See how your refusal to use the "quote tab" really TOTALLY messed up your post when I used the quote tab on yours?
Ikt looks now like You said, what in reality was said by Jim Thompson, and your actual post appears as if I have written it (and there are even forum rules for that, as in that you or others can now report me for making it look like you said something you actually never said, and it would cost me infraction points).

If you would have used the quote tab yourself, me quoting you would have looked like:
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeismicCWave
Sorry that's the problem with old dogs. I have been on forums before all these forums were around. There was a thing called Compuserve back in the 80's and within Compuserve there was a ground called the Modelnet. I started doing quotes that way ever since. I cannot be bothered to learn how to quote when ever I go on a new "forum". Those were the days when hobbyists were friendly and helpful and we meet up in person once in a while.

Really makes no difference anyway. People just read what they want to read anyway so it does not matter what I write and how I write. Just look at some of the horrendous posts with all kinds of spelling mistakes and grammar errors and wrong logic. No one cares.
See the difference?
The quote tab is there for a reason, and proper use of it makes things a lot clearer for other posters.
Because the underlined, I am sorry, is VERY untrue…

PLEASE use the quote tab, it makes life for others so much easier...
Last edited by Brutus1967; Feb 10, 2019 at 02:16 AM.


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