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This thread is privately moderated by Mike Denest, who may elect to delete unwanted replies.
Nov 11, 2018, 10:53 AM
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VR/CS Engine displacement for Concours


Guys, this is my interpretation of the Concours rule; it is simply based on the rules written in the A.M.A. book. What the book allows (allowed...), that will be our limit.
For Concours we do not apply the "rolling 35" rule but we have a cut-off date at the end of 1975 (as in SPA, by the way). So, one suggestion might be to allow any power plant called for in the 1975 A.M.A. book. I do not remember exactly (but I'll check, I promise) if there has been any change in the power plant definition, say, from the end of the fifties (Smog Hog and Astro Hog as a reference) to the end of 1975 (Curare and Dirty Birdy, as a reference). To be really strict, one should apply the power plant rule in force at the time the design was released. In general terms, this interpretation would allow for Concours only two stroke engines up to .61cu.in., no Four Strokers, no Electric.
I think the concept of Concours is to prepare a "Replica" of the original model, using the same drawing and the same materials available at the time the design was originally built. Therefore the power plant should be something the A.M.A. book allowed for the time-frame we are considering. A number (.61cu.in.) is easy to follow, understand and demonstrate. A more complex definition could be: " A power plant AVAILABLE at the time the model was designed/kitted", which means that, apart for complaining with the A.M.A. rule book, on a Taurus, for instance, one shouldn't install a VECO 61 because it was not yet available in 1962.
Well, I do not want to abuse your patience, and I'll stop here, hoping I was clear enough.
Any comments?
Thanks!
Beppe
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Nov 11, 2018, 11:08 AM
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slow_flier's Avatar
Beppe

My take on this issue is that we require that the Concurs model be powered by an engine/motor of similar type and displacement as shown on the plans. This would result in serious downgrades if a 2-cycle glow engine was replaced with an electric motor or a 4-stroke. Similarly, replacing a .40 glow with a .61 would result in downgrades.

Tom Kozel
Nov 11, 2018, 11:56 AM
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Mike Denest's Avatar
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As Tom mentioned, the engine should be a similar displacement according to the design. Anything other is a downgrade. We cannot judge the entrant's personal choices but he/she needs to understand that power selection is important for maximum points. If an entrant chooses to fly electric power, the power system should be consistent with the design. If the entrant chooses a 4 stroke, that's his/her choice but again, they need to understand that it is a downgrade.

The idea is more participation in Concours as long as the powerplant system is consistent with the design. Imposing strict limitations can be detrimental to the event. Beppe, I'm happy that you are a purist and I agree with you and feel the same way regarding powerplant systems being an important part of Concours but I don't want to see anyone turned away or off because of too restrictive rules. SPA is a great organization and I wish there was more activity here up north. However, the SPA focus is on competition with period airplanes and they have different requirements. SPA guys enjoy the hobby just as much but they are in for the aerobatic competition. In VRCS, our interest is fun relaxed competition with period airplanes. We are alike as organizations but with slightly different agendas.

The referenced AMA 1975 rulebook had these power requirements as it was hardcore competition oriented; most of the guys who competed in Class I, II and III pattern were consistent winners who led the way to improved engines, radios and other products developed for the RC hobby. For VRCS, I want to have fun and enjoy a day at the field with similar enthusiasts for these old designs. So, if a guy enters a Taurus in Concours with a .61, electric or four stroke, he must understand the the entry will be downgraded. However, I can debate that .61 installation because I went to plenty of contests in the 1966 through 1970 period where guys were flying a Taurus with a .61; anyone with a .45 was not competitive unless they were really good and their airframe was extremely light. I know of only one guy who was able to do that; Ed Kazmirski. For my Taurus the engine of choice is the Veco .61 mainly because they are plentiful and the mounting is interchangeable with the Veco .45 should I desire to install one.

Excellent points everyone, thank you for your thoughts.
Nov 11, 2018, 12:00 PM
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Mike Denest's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsarnold05
This is more like the newer groups I'm in, let's see how this works. Veco .19 and original decals that were falling apart as they went on. One more swipe of lacquer would have ruined the big wing decal.
Very nice Krakerjac DS, is that a new build or original from way back when?
Nov 11, 2018, 12:31 PM
Now I have to land that thing?
PGregory's Avatar
Hello...
Nov 11, 2018, 01:09 PM
Registered User
FYI the SPA cutoff has been changed this year, it is no longer 1975...they now allow designs through 1979. This allows Tipos, UFO'S etc into SPA, wheras they are still ineligible for VRCS competition...but ok for open flying.
Nov 11, 2018, 02:11 PM
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Vrcs


Good idea, Mike.
I will enjoy posting and viewing.
Nov 11, 2018, 02:24 PM
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Nice opportunity to view VRCS models and related topics, Mike. Thank you.

Joe
Nov 11, 2018, 04:35 PM
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Mike Denest's Avatar
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Hi Joe and Bob, nice to have you here.

Here's a link to the VRCS photo library of past events and shows. http://vintagercsociety.org/cms3/index.php/photos
Nov 12, 2018, 07:31 AM
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gene6029's Avatar
When will the theme plane for 2019 be decided on? Winter is closeing in and im itching to start building something for next year.....Gene VRCS 793
Nov 12, 2018, 08:17 AM
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Mike Denest's Avatar
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Gene, traditionally the theme plane committee selects one design in particular then follows up with any eligible design from the same individual. So, for 2019 it is the Dave Platt Contender plus any of his designs up to 1975. The current edition Top Flite Contender is eligible for Concours and pattern. Note that the current Contender will be downgraded in Concours as it is a redesign from the original 1969 plans or kit but is ok for pattern. If you want to build a Contender, Lazer Works has a short kit available based on the original TF kit plans for $130 plus shipping. http://lazer-works.com/misc.html
Nov 12, 2018, 08:20 AM
Registered User
Mike, I agree with you, about VR/CS spirit and the desire to see as many people as possible entering all our events. But in any case no 90-91 two stroke in any competition, right?
Beppe
Nov 12, 2018, 11:12 AM
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Beppe,
We're working on that, stay tuned.
Nov 12, 2018, 12:52 PM
Registered User
Cabi is here now too!
Nov 12, 2018, 01:12 PM
Modeling Retread
This is great, I'm glad that you've opened this thread. I could never get he Yahoo system to work for me.

Mike, as the thread gets bigger, consider adding links on the first page to key topics as they come up.

Per your request, here is a link to a Build Log on my effort to restore a Nostalgia Class Sig Kougar. It was way harder than I anticipated but it worked out.

Rebuilding-VRCS-Nostalgia-Class-Sig-Kougar
Last edited by GRW3; Nov 12, 2018 at 01:26 PM. Reason: Add thread link


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