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Oct 08, 2018, 03:37 PM
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Discussion

USA F5J Rules 2019 Rules Change Proposals


I am starting this thread to discuss the changes I am formulating for submission to the AMA for changes to the current F5J rules. Attached are the easy ones. I am struggling with the restart rule and how that can be described and enforced appropriately. We can leave discussion of that until I submit some proposed wording.

Until then we can discuss the attached proposals. I have described the changes to the best of my ability. They are subject to change as a result of this discussion. The main points of discussion for each of the proposals is:

- Is this something the USA F5J community supports?
- Have I described the changes appropriately?
- Are there other hot button changes I have not addressed for USA pilots?




Let the discussions begin...
Jim
Last edited by jimsoars; Nov 13, 2018 at 01:36 PM. Reason: Final Proposals Attached
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Oct 08, 2018, 04:41 PM
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Neil Stainton's Avatar
I am apprehensive to download these because of the danger of viruses. Others probably feel the same.

Could you post them as PDF or text files? Or just post them in your message?

Not in the USA but still interested.

Neil
Oct 08, 2018, 05:15 PM
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PDF files loaded...
Jim
Oct 09, 2018, 12:43 AM
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phil stevo's Avatar
Jim, in Australia we would use "round down". I have never heard the term "truncated" used in this way. English does vary a little from place to place.
Well drafted, nice to see what your country might propose. Some will be more discussed than others I suspect.
Oct 09, 2018, 08:12 AM
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We often have confusion on this here. Everyone knows what a math round up means - .5 or higher to the next integer, but nobody I have talked to here uses round down. To us it implys some math like the round up. Truncate means ignore the decimals and seems clear (to us... ).

Language for international rules can be tricky - hence my desire to discuss my verbiage before submission.
Jim
Oct 09, 2018, 09:06 AM
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I had a suggestion for a language neutral description of the time for 5.5.11.5.1.C:

Record only the minutes and seconds on the official clock, ignoring any fractions of a second.

This avoids any inappropriate inference on rounding.
Jim
Oct 09, 2018, 11:11 AM
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Never understood why we truncate. Why not just use correct measurement techniques? Stopwatches typically measure to the hundredth of a second. If the fraction is below .5, round down to the nearest integer. If .5 or above, round up.

Truncating means your target time is really a half second longer than your stated target. Always bugged me in F3B. . .
Oct 09, 2018, 11:54 AM
Team Futaba
Silent-AV8R's Avatar
Redundant question
Oct 09, 2018, 12:33 PM
Oleg Golovidov
olgol's Avatar
Jim, thanks for taking the effort and writing the proposals.
All make good sense to me.

Some 'clerical' issues that come to mind:

In 5.5.11.11.b (Landing) proposal, it would be better to see the entire paragraph, scratched out, to understand quickly what is proposed (to be deleted).

In 5.5.11.1.1 (Contest Flights) where you added the verbiage about gyros/sensors, there is no bold/underline in the main body of the paragraph. Not clear which text was added.

A comment/opinion:

In 5.5.11.10.b (Launching) proposal where you added the definition of the launch direction and a 3 second rule: I am against the 3 second (or any time) limit, especially if we use your 180 degree arc direction definition. Presumably the objective of the proposal and the rule itself is to improve safety. Flying without turning for 3 seconds at nearly 90 degrees to the straight ahead direction is not going to improve safety. The plane will cross 2-3 other pilots and their trajectories before it is allowed to turn. I do not think there is any good rule here that would guarantee an improved safety, very much like in your landing direction proposal. Only a common sense of the pilots can help here. If somebody is impeded - there is a re-flight rule for that. Other than that, IMO there is no 3 second rule that is needed or helpful here. Especially with the liberal 180 degree arc definition that you propose.
Oct 09, 2018, 01:18 PM
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Thanks Oleg - good clerical suggestions. I have made those changes and update the PDFs.

I have had some questions offline so let me clarify a few things...

First - I am doing these proposals as Jim Monaco - I do NOT represent that these proposals reflect the views of any group! Ultimately I will submit these proposals for change as I see in the best interest of the sport. While formulating these proposals I intend to keep an open mind and discussion in this group is intended to foster my thinking.

There may be instances where a clear conclusion cannot be drawn so I may formulate 2 alternate proposals for the same item to be submitted. There is no rule against that. I also intend to take into account polling conducted by the F5J Tour as part of my consideration.

Second - Any individual may submit their own proposals so if you are violently against any of my proposals you are welcome to submit your own to the AMA. Note that you must submit your proposals to the AMA by Nov 15 in the approved FAI format (as shown in the PDFs) . I have attached the zip with the instructions and forms required to this post.

Now back to the discussion...


I think, personally, there is benefit to the 3 second rule. Planes are MUCH closer together horizontally and vertically at the beginning of the launch. A quick turn out of the hand in the middle of the flight line is MUCH more dangerous than after 3 seconds have passed. By 3 seconds vertical separation is much more apparent and the pilot turning and those around them have more time to see and avoid. I think that tactically the 3 second rule allows the pilots in the middle of the flight line equal opportunity to make a strong , safe turn as compare to the ones on the end that have much less traffic to contend with. I'd like to hear from others...
Jim
Oct 09, 2018, 01:28 PM
Oleg Golovidov
olgol's Avatar
What if I launched 3 seconds after everybody?
Or 30 seconds later?
Oct 09, 2018, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by olgol
What if I launched 3 seconds after everybody?
Or 30 seconds later?
Knock yourself out...

Perhaps it should be clarified as 3 seconds after the start of the working time...? After that there is all the separation that anyone needs...
Just thinking...
Jim
Oct 09, 2018, 02:14 PM
Registered User
This make no sense as to direction to launch. I have no idea as to what this is trying to say. I can launch in any direction as long as it is not along the flight line. If so what good does the 3 seconds mean.

Quote:
The direction of launch must be within the 180 degree arc of the flight line that includes the launch direction.
Art
Oct 09, 2018, 03:01 PM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by old1104
This make no sense as to direction to launch. I have no idea as to what this is trying to say. I can launch in any direction as long as it is not along the flight line. If so what good does the 3 seconds mean.



Art
Maybe there are better words. It is trying to say the launch must be in FRONT of the launch line in the launch direction and that you must fly 3 seconds in that direction before you can turn. Any direction would be 360 degrees...

The point of this is to ensure that the launch direction rule is enforced fairly and accurately. The question for the current rule is the actual definition of "launch direction" If the CD says north - how close to actual north do you need to be to avoid a penalty? Maybe 45 degrees is defined - how is that accurately measured at each lane? As long as you launch on the side of the flight line of the indicated direction and fly for 3 seconds you are good. If you turn before 3 seconds or launch behind the flightline then you get a penalty. This is the basic rule used at our Team Selection (only the time was 2 seconds.)
Jim
Oct 09, 2018, 03:19 PM
Oleg Golovidov
olgol's Avatar
Jim, in your proposal, is the intent to not maneuver for 3 seconds, or to stay on one side of the flight line without crossing it, for 3 seconds? Seems like the former.
Then what happens if I turned 5 degrees off my original launch direction? What if I was trying to avoid a collision? Or a wind gust banked the plane a little and it turned. What if I turned 10 degrees off? 20 degrees? How do you measure that?

Or did you mean that the flight direction cannot be more than 90 degrees off the straight ahead line, for 3 seconds? And maneuvering is OK between -90/+90 degrees?

This becomes an unenforceable rule, and IMO not helping the intent (safety) at all. If one can launch and fly at nearly 90 degrees to the straight ahead direction, there is absolutely no help from the 3 second rule.


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