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Jul 08, 2018, 07:45 AM
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privy's Avatar
Build Log

B-58 Hustler indoor EPP.

Hello from Finland. My first post contain thoughts of my B-58 project for indoor (and outdoor when weather is calm).
My English is not perfect, so don't hesitate to ask further information for better explain.

I have no experience with flat delta wing and no lightweight EDF system either, so B-58 indoor plane offer both principles to test for.
Many fighters have delta wing, but air intake duct is quite complicate for lightweight plane. A-10 Thunderbolt II for example, has simple motor construction, but without delta wing.

My target weight was around 200g (7-7.5oz). I benefit FPV drone parts for motor construction . HGLRC 1105 6000kv is quite powerful and high efficiency motor. I tested also more lightweight motors like size 1103 and 1104, with less efficiency results. Aluminum prop guard is splendid choice for motor attachment. Maybe this is more ducted propeller rather than ducted fan, but it make thrust anyway..

Cylindrical 2mm thick EPP tube is coated with plastic for better flow, but only before prop. Second part after prop is bit conical without inner coat. This combination offer best efficiency / weight ratio. Around 60g (2.1oz) / 30W for example. Not much, but enough for few minutes flight with 500mAh and 850mAh 2S LiPo.

I shorten plans for better fit for indoor use, it also make transport lot easier. Long nose part is useless weight anyway. Length 100cm (40"). Wing span 74 cm (29"). I also made some modification to vertical EPP parts for better fit and look.

First flight attempt with prototype was disappointment. Inner motor pylon was too high 38mm (1.5") and nose went up when throttling. CG adjustment did not solve handling problems. Elevon performance was also poor, so i moved hinge line backwards 33mm (1.3") and made front lip of elevon bigger. Reducing motor pylon height to 19mm (3/4") made handling way better.
Last edited by privy; Jul 27, 2018 at 02:56 PM.
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Jul 08, 2018, 02:05 PM
An itch?. Scratch build.
eflightray's Avatar
Nice model.

Scroll to the bottom of this page, it lists other B-58 threads.

Jul 08, 2018, 03:28 PM
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privy's Avatar
Thanks. Nice projects, at that time builder had different possible part options to choose for. Today we have plenty of lightweight parts available for relatively cheap price. Motors and 4in1 esc for instance.

I use Dremel for nice and easy hinge. In my opinion, this is good way to make factory like hinge without shiny tapes or glue. I use Dremel for control surface cutting also. I adjust deep setting just above other surface so structure shape remain better. I cut rest of the slot later with knife. I use Dremel again to make slit for carbon batten wing spar. I install front wing spar 19mm (3/4") from leading edge rather than direct to leading edge.

Delta wing part is 5mm EPP. Straight and curved wing spars are 0.5x3mm CF batten mounted flush with bottom side of the wing, so top side stay nice and clean. Rest of the parts are 4mm EPP. Another picture show some parts. If you look carefully, you can see tiny groove in front of rudder hinge. It is for 0.8mm CF pole. Same thing on other side. It give rigid and light "sandwich" structure,

Fabric markers are great for little decals. Better color assortment than industrial markers. Believe it or not, after few minutes it resist even alcohol.
Last edited by privy; Jul 08, 2018 at 05:16 PM.
Jul 08, 2018, 04:51 PM
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privy's Avatar
Rudder reinforcement (pair of 0.8mm CF bar) reach bottom edge of the fuselage just under elevon hinge line. So back strut doesn't limit elevon throw. Front strut go through motor pylon part and end up near to front wing spar. There is three thin CF batten (0.15x3mm) in inner motor pylon (see picture). Wing is rigid and quite lightweight.

Each motor unit weight 15g (0.53oz). Four motor total 60g (2.1oz). EPP wing and fuselage parts around 60g (2.1oz) also.
4in1 esc with wires and additional bec 19g (0.67oz). Esc has build in bec, but 0.5A current is not enough for three servos, even for tiny Emax ES9251. Of course, multicopter esc doesn't need strong bec, 0.5A is enough for RX, FC and possible tiny camera.

I didn't made functional rudder for prototype at all. I put just some rudder mix for outer motors for testing. As you can see, final plane include rudder. Mixing is still active. I can choose mix off, throttle up only and throttle up and down with some effect.

Elevon servos are glued on front wing spar. It is rigid position. Final plane flies nicely, except rolling, so i made aileron to rudder mix, just like original B-58. So, rolling problem is solved.
Last edited by privy; Jul 08, 2018 at 05:08 PM.
Jul 08, 2018, 06:00 PM
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jumo004's Avatar
Nice work !!

Would like to see some video if possible.
Jul 08, 2018, 06:26 PM
“There’s no place like Foam”
gpw's Avatar
Very COOL !!!
Latest blog entry: Lost plans
Jul 08, 2018, 07:19 PM
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privy's Avatar
Thank your for suportive feedback. I try to get some video as soon as possible, i have to ask my friend who can editing etc..
Meanwhile here is video of my older project. I can make another build log as well, if interested.

Mosquito (3 min 23 sec)
Jul 09, 2018, 04:49 AM
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privy's Avatar
Bigger propeller might increase efficiency. Original prop size is 2". Next i try more accuracy fit. I use 2540 or similar with necessary blade grinding.
Main landing gear location is just after CG. I hope this allow realistic take off increasing speed and ange of attack. Landin gear is high enough for this. 1.5mm carbon rod with round CA tip ball is floor friendly. I dont use tires because of look.
Last edited by privy; Jul 09, 2018 at 05:00 AM.
Jul 09, 2018, 05:21 PM
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privy's Avatar
I put some throw on control surfaces. I am not satisfied if plane is only capable for just circle around hall. No matter what model it is, i like good maneuver capability. It is more fun that way.

Control mechanism is from TH Crack indoor plane spare part bag. Easy and lightweight solution. Especially when plane contain lots of moving surfaces. (for example, my indoor De Havilland Mosquito contain 9 surface total).

Weight is 201g (7.1oz) with 500mAh 2S 30C LiPo. Total thrust with 2" props is around 230g (8.1oz) when battery voltage is 7.6V. Climb rate is pretty ok, but more power would be nice for hectic indoor use I might test 3S battery if bigger props don't offer greater thrust.

Top speed is quite ok for outdoor fun. Slow speed performance is nice, it can fly same speed than any other indoor plane except Clik NG /R2 etc.. Wing load is around 11g/dm2 (3.6 oz/sq. ft.).
Jul 11, 2018, 03:25 PM
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500mAh 2S battery give approximately 4 1/2 minutes flight and 850mAh 7 minutes with quite low throttle usage. Of course, more aggressive flight with much throttle last half of it.

Left side letter A on fuselage is good spot for CG.

Interesting behavior is turning with rudder, then inner side wing stall, or att least wingtip drop clearly. I think using thrust differential strengthen that effect. That is not an issue. Actually it makes flying more interesting.
Last edited by privy; Jul 12, 2018 at 03:07 PM.
Jul 15, 2018, 07:15 AM
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privy's Avatar
There is another option for motor mount. KingKong 1.9" prop guard. It is more durable than aluminium but also bit heavier, 3.4g instead of 2.7g.
2" prop doesn't fit without grinding. Pink 5 blade propeller is 1.9" with little gap. 2.3" prop guard is available also. I think aluminium guard would crack after bending few times.

I test 3S LiPo with expected result. Much more thrust and speed. Disadvantage is sound. While 2S sound is quite nice, suitable hiss for indoor. 3S sound is loud screaming when using lot of power.

I had replace esc for testing. First esc was 1S -2S with .5A bec. Underside bec is useless anyway, so i chance 2S -4S opto esc. Downside of those multicopter escs is impossibility programming with transmitter. Or low voltage cut off is disabled. I have to order programming tool to fix it.

Here is some decal templates.
Jul 18, 2018, 08:14 AM
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Good news!

I removed Emax Avan 2" props, wich was best option until now.
I replaced Avan by Gemfan Flash 2540 props. Of course i need to grind tips until good fit. Now performance is pretty much better.

Before change i made test with large 2S LiPo (8V).
At 100W power, thust was 200g (7.1oz).

New props with same battery.
At 100W power, thrust was 240g (8.5oz)
Same 200g (7.1oz) thust need 75W power. 1/4 less than before.

Maximum thrust is 290g (10.2oz) at 7.9V.

Tradeoff is sound. Avan quartet sound much better.
Last edited by privy; Jul 27, 2018 at 02:17 PM.
Jul 21, 2018, 04:33 AM
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privy's Avatar
If you look post #4 pics, you can see straight and curved wing spar. This combination give rigid structure for wingtip also. Outer motor thrust does not twist wingtip at all.

Using pair of 0.8mm CF rods offer good combination of weight and rigidy. Tradeoff is crash resistance. Snap easily.

I ordered Rotorx RX2535 for testing. I hope 4 blade props with good fit can offer good combination of efficiency, thrust and sound. More blade, more drag.. but more turbine like sound also.
Jul 27, 2018, 02:17 PM
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privy's Avatar
I replaced Flash props by RotorX RX2535. This propeller has 2 blade and 4 blade option. I use 4 blade. Of course, i modify props for good fit to motor assembly.

At 100W power, thrust was 230g (8.1oz)
200g (7.1oz) thust need 78W power.

Climb rate is far better than with 2" props.

Sound is same kind hiss than Avan 2". In my opinion, this is best compromise. Performance, efficiency and sound is pretty ok.
Last edited by privy; Jul 27, 2018 at 02:32 PM.
Jul 28, 2018, 06:57 AM
“There’s no place like Foam”
gpw's Avatar
COOL plane , Thanks priv’ …
Latest blog entry: Lost plans

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