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May 14, 2018, 05:53 PM
Registered User
Yes, you can't alter aircraft motions any faster than their control surfaces can cause that.
Not many aircraft can do 360deg/sec.... certainly not any 'normal' aircraft setups.
Though that post/request was a joke really anyway. I forget the numbers but the A3 rotation maximums (that they will allow to occur IF it can be achieved by the aircraft) were already greater than should ever be required.
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May 14, 2018, 07:51 PM
Registered User
Thread OP
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterVRC
Yes, you can't alter aircraft motions any faster than their control surfaces can cause that.
Not many aircraft can do 360deg/sec.... certainly not any 'normal' aircraft setups.
Though that post/request was a joke really anyway. I forget the numbers but the A3 rotation maximums (that they will allow to occur IF it can be achieved by the aircraft) were already greater than should ever be required.
I quite agree with you. That was why we removed the R/R control mode from A3S3. R/R control mode was a rotation rate based control method that might probably be better for muti-rotors, but not for airplanes and fixed-wings. In fact, the controllers that used on muti-rotors, such as CC3D and F3, F4, etc. use rate-control-based in normal mode, and angle-control-based in balance mode. But, as you said, you can't alter a plane motions any faster than its control surfaces can cause that which makes it useless on an airplane gyro. Even, the R/R mode really brought too much trouble and confusions to our customers. A lot of people asked a same question of "What is the R/R mode and what the rotation maximum should I choose?", or "Why the amount of the movemet of the servo becomes larger than the actual deflection of the stick when operating in R/R mode?". People thought that the A3 had enlarged the stick inputs which was unacceptable. In reality, this was just the target rate correction output applied to the servos which used to achieve the expected rotation rate.

Unlike the R/R mode, A/R (Angle-control-based) might seem to be a little useful on an airplane. So we gave it a new name "Trainer Mode" as a new flight mode and kept it down in A3S3.
May 14, 2018, 08:21 PM
Registered User
Thread OP
Quote:
Originally Posted by billmester
Hello HOBBYEAGLE,

Nice to see activity from You here. I was losing hope but now I see some promising future
I have around 10 Super2 and one Super 3.

So here is my input for you:

- As a lot of users say, the S3 feels a little bit slower to react, people find the controls less direct, compared to the S2.

- Also, please help me: with Delta wing, there is a difference between S2 and S3. In the wing selection the drawing shows 3 outputs (2 elevon + 1 rudd) on S3, but only 2 outputs (2 elevons) on S2. Does it mean that the rudder is not controlled there by the gyro? I like the one in the S3 better, just think about a jet plane (I have one and I am about to use an S2 there... but maybe I need the S3?)

- at the servo settings, S2 software has a "response rate" setting, while S3 does not. What is replacing this function?

Some good things I like in S3:
-separate connector
-6 modes available at the same time, very useful for flight test and setup

...and the last: please consider selling the field programmer cards separately too.

Thanks
bm
Thank you for your suggestions. Regarding for your questions, below are some references for you.

1. As a lot of users say, the S3 feels a little bit slower to react, people find the controls less direct, compared to the S2. We also really want to find out the problem why people said that. The control algorithm of S3 is almost the same as that being used on S2, as of now, all we have is that the default initial basic gain of S3 was much smaller, which might probably cause a difference compared to S2. We have completed several new firmwares now and are about to test them these days. Maybe I can give an answer after test and comparison.

2. As for delta wing, there was no difference between s2 and s3. Rudder can be used separately on either s2 or s3.

3. "Response Rate" has been replaced by "Gyro Hardware Filter" from s3, which you can find in the advanced settings page. The default is DLPF_42Hz. Choose a higher frequency for example 188Hz or 256Hz to get a faster response of the gyro sensor.

4. We have been selling the program card separately all the time. Maybe you can ask motion rc.
May 15, 2018, 01:22 AM
Registered User
Thanks!

Sadly, MRC does not ship to my country (Hungary, Europe)... normally my source is Banggood, but they do not sell the separate unit.
On ebay, the separate unit is more expensive than a complete set on BG So next time I will buy a complete set (I have lost my programmer...) and now I have to use the PC in the field.

Regarding the Delta-rudder question, I have attached the screenshots from the S2 and S3 software, that was confusing me.

Thanks again for the answers!
bm
Last edited by billmester; May 15, 2018 at 08:56 AM.
May 15, 2018, 02:18 AM
Registered User
R/R control.
I did not mean it is of no use, it is just no use giving more than value "X" which would be impossible to really ever achieve.
The values the A3S2 had were fine.

A R/R is still good because it will allow a perfectly smooth, constant rotation rate, Roll to be achieved - many aircraft alter their roll rate as they 'cross over' certain roll angles and the wing design causes this. For EG, an aircraft with dihedral - more so if a lot of that - will roll sharply faster after about 150deg is reached/passed (or was it 220deg region? I forget). This is because of the difference in 'shape' from upright to inverted - the dihedral makes it accelerate through the inverted region.
Thus a R/R control form will make that constant and precise.
May 15, 2018, 02:27 AM
Registered User
I think more technically correct terms are BETTER - not names to make it easy for lay people.
Give the more accurate technical names AND then in the TEXT that explains its use, also include the laymen's 'explanation' portion.
Coming up with "2D" modes etc is misleading and silly really (eg EagleTree Guardian use that name).
And I mean for ALL outlined functions and operations the device(s) do.

OR, in the worst case, give it some sensible 'easy' name, but then explain its true function in the text.

I think a bigger problem with flight controllers is all the 'generic' mis-leading names and outlines, which then never truly teach people WHAT the device is, and is doing. If you understand the 'building blocks' of how something is done THEN you truly LEARN it, and then the million and one questions about "What is this?", "How do I do that?" will reduce. (That does not mean the in depth theory is required, just appropriate simple enough CORRECT outlines).
It doesn't need to be highly detailed, but just correct and of use rather than overly simplistic, if not useless in teaching anything, labels and outlines.
Maybe some of the topic paragraphs would gain one sentence more, or a few.... but the knowledge gain of users would be great, and also the questions asked, and mis-understandings, would reduce too.

All things considered, the HobbyEagle manuals are above average in "Chinese device" terms (most are pretty average if not woeful!), but they could still use some 'improving'.
May 16, 2018, 01:18 PM
Registered User

User Defined Modes in Atti-Lock


Quote:
Originally Posted by RC Man
I use the User Defined Mode on the Super II.

Is it possible to add that option to the S3?

.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HOBBYEAGLE
I think you can use the AttiLock mode instead of User Defined mode. Just need to set the lock gain of corresponding axis to 0% then you will get only the normal mode on that axis. This was why we cancelled the user defined mode on A3S3, it can be achieved in another way by using the independent gain settings for each axis and for each flight modes.
I also like the user defined mode of the A3S2.
In the S2 I used the 3D AVCS (new wording Atti-Lock in A3S3) for aileron and elevator, and normal mode for rudder.
Especially in knife edge flight that was more comfortable for me than all three axis in Atti-Lock.

For landing in a windy place it would be nice to have Atti-Lock for aileron and rudder, but for elevator I would prefer the normal mode.

In the actual A3S3 software I can choose up to maximum 6 "Flight Mode Preset".
I can e.g. choose for flight mode "Pos-1", "Pos-2", "Pos-3" the Atti-Lock.
But if I understand correct what Hobbyeagle explained it can be defined only one time "Basic Gain" and "Lock Gain".
That means up to now there is no possibility to define e.g. Atti-Lock characteristic e.g. for different flight phases.
Nice would be to have the possibility to define different flight charateristics for different flight modes and for testing and optimizing.

Maybe that could probably be realized if the gain setting "Basic Gain" and "Lock Gain" would be defined for each flight mode "Pos-1", "Pos-2", "Pos-3" etc.
and not only general one time for all flight modes as practiced now.

Maybe other pilots can also provide their feedback whether they have "User Defined Modes in Atti-Lock" on their wishlist.
May 16, 2018, 06:23 PM
Registered User
Go4it's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by A.H.
I also like the user defined mode of the A3S2.
In the S2 I used the 3D AVCS (new wording Atti-Lock in A3S3) for aileron and elevator, and normal mode for rudder.
Especially in knife edge flight that was more comfortable for me than all three axis in Atti-Lock.

For landing in a windy place it would be nice to have Atti-Lock for aileron and rudder, but for elevator I would prefer the normal mode.

In the actual A3S3 software I can choose up to maximum 6 "Flight Mode Preset".
I can e.g. choose for flight mode "Pos-1", "Pos-2", "Pos-3" the Atti-Lock.
But if I understand correctly what Hobbyeagle explained it can be defined only one time "Basic Gain" and "Lock Gain".
That means up to now there is no possibility to define e.g. Atti-Lock characteristic e.g. for different flight phases.
Nice would be to have the possibility to define different flight characteristics for different flight modes and for testing and optimizing.

Maybe that could probably be realized if the gain setting "Basic Gain" and "Lock Gain" would be defined for each flight mode "Pos-1", "Pos-2", "Pos-3" etc.
and not only general one time for all flight modes as practiced now.

Maybe other pilots can also provide their feedback whether they have "User Defined Modes in Atti-Lock" on their wishlist.


Why limit yourself. Use a slider or rotary switch on your Tx to have infinite gain settings. Asking someone what is the best gain setting is like asking how long is a piece of string. Too many variables like weight, speed, wind.
May 17, 2018, 12:46 AM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by Go4it
Why limit yourself. Use a slider or rotary switch on your Tx to have infinite gain settings. Asking someone what is the best gain setting is like asking how long is a piece of string. Too many variables like weight, speed, wind.
I use the right slider on my Frsky X10S for changing the Master Gain during the flight and I like it.
Especially during the first flights it is helpful to find the optimized gain for the different axis.
It is also possible to adapt the gain to the actual wind, maybe increase the gain at a windy day during landing phase.

BUT, it can only changed the Master Gain, the features and possibilities that I described above are not possible by only changing the Master Gain.
May 17, 2018, 01:30 AM
Registered User
the_crack_fox's Avatar
Individual gain adjustments, instead of just the master gain. That would be great!

Many flybarless controllers allow you to assign a wide selection of tuning parameters to spare channels.
May 18, 2018, 02:45 AM
Registered User
I tested the Sbus connection with a FrSky Rx, since the A3S3 behave like a Sbus/pwm decoder it is possible to use the XSR which give four stabilized channels anf ch.5 like a throttle channel.
May 20, 2018, 11:35 AM
Registered User
Levendis's Avatar
Installed and flew two S3 equipped Freewing Avantis today.
One big problem was that the maximum gain levels available on the super3 were much lower than that available on the Super2. So “Normal mode” flights were much less precise than on the S2.
On the S2, i could get oscillation on the roll axis if i push aileron gains to around 50%, high level gains, 333hz, manual mode, 0 deadband (standard pattern flier preferences).
On the S3, no matter how hard I push (100% gains) nothing oscillates - it feels like an S2 on very low gains...lossey goosey.
On the ground, when I rotate the Plane with an S2 the ailerons move up and down a lot.
With the S3 movement is about only 30% as much.
I see that there is a response ratio now that i can adjust on S3...but other than that what can I adjust to INCREASE effective gain so I could have my precision back??
Long term user since Super 1, dozens of units used. Hoping for a quick fix!
May 20, 2018, 08:01 PM
Registered User
the_crack_fox's Avatar
I noticed the same thing. I put longer servo horns on all surfaces, problem solved.
May 20, 2018, 10:16 PM
Flying R/C since 1964
kallend's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by HOBBYEAGLE
I quite agree with you. That was why we removed the R/R control mode from A3S3. R/R control mode was a rotation rate based control method that might probably be better for muti-rotors, but not for airplanes and fixed-wings. In fact, the controllers that used on muti-rotors, such as CC3D and F3, F4, etc. use rate-control-based in normal mode, and angle-control-based in balance mode. But, as you said, you can't alter a plane motions any faster than its control surfaces can cause that which makes it useless on an airplane gyro. Even, the R/R mode really brought too much trouble and confusions to our customers. A lot of people asked a same question of "What is the R/R mode and what the rotation maximum should I choose?", or "Why the amount of the movemet of the servo becomes larger than the actual deflection of the stick when operating in R/R mode?". People thought that the A3 had enlarged the stick inputs which was unacceptable. In reality, this was just the target rate correction output applied to the servos which used to achieve the expected rotation rate.

Unlike the R/R mode, A/R (Angle-control-based) might seem to be a little useful on an airplane. So we gave it a new name "Trainer Mode" as a new flight mode and kept it down in A3S3.
Well, I liked it (RR mode) and was sorry to see it eliminated. It made slow rolls much smoother with deltas or planes with a lot of sweep or dihedral. Much more useful than expo in the gyro.

And since pretty much everyone loved the A3S2 algorithms why did you change them at all?
Last edited by kallend; May 20, 2018 at 10:27 PM.
May 20, 2018, 10:29 PM
Registered User
Thread OP

Important update for a3s3: F/w v2.0


Thank you everyone for your passionate participation and valuable feedback. Here is the new update for A3S3 (V2.0).
Please follow the instructions below to upgrade your unit to V2.

1. Get the V2.0 firmware file for the gyro from the link below and perform an off-line update using the Firmware Update Utility.
http://www.hobbyeagle.com/updates/A3S3_FW_V2.0.bin

2. Get the V4.0 firmware file for the programming card from the link below and perform an off-line update using the Firmware Update Utility.
http://www.hobbyeagle.com/updates/PC_FW_V4.0.bin

3. Download and install the newest PC Config Utility V2 from the link below. The previous version of the config utility will be removed automatically when installing the new version.
http://www.hobbyeagle.com/download/A...ility_v2.0.msi

Notes
1. The current configuration of the gyro will be migrated to the new version when updating to V2.0. However please confirm again before the test flight.
2. The programming card V4.0 will no longer support the previous firmware v1.x.
3. The PC config utility V2.0 will no longer support the previous firmware v1.x.
4. If you haven't installed the firmware update utility yet, get it here: http://www.hobbyeagle.com/download/1...te_Utility.msi

Changes in V2.0
1. Stick Reverse, Rate and Expo removed.
2. Control algorithms improved and default gain level enhanced to get a much more precise reaction of the gyro.
3. R/R mode (Rotation-Rate-Based control mode) restored.
4. User-defined mode restored.
5. Response gain has been renamed to "Gain Drop Curve"and offers 5 options for different control behavior, including L0-Never Drop, L1-Stable, L2-Normal, L3-Sport, L4-3D.
6. WiFi module support added to use the APP configuration in the future.
Last edited by HOBBYEAGLE; May 20, 2018 at 11:13 PM.


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