Four Person Team Competition

The Australians, courtesy of John Quigley, have agreed to a postal contest against the U.S.A. This is a one day postal contest. This in turn has lead to a worldwide postal contest. The LSF will sponsor the postal contest and post the results to RC Groups and to the LSF Website. Instructions are below.

1. TBD for Scoring - Working with Gerry Carter at Glider Score to make sure I have the instructions correct.

2. Rules are simple:
a. This is a WOODIE contest and an ALES contest!!!
b. Rules guidelines: Please use the 2017-2018 RC Soaring Rules set found on the Academy of model Aeronautics website:
http://www.modelaircraft.org/events/compreg.aspx
c. Should an aircraft become un-flyable one backup plane of each type allowed
d. No wingspan restriction
e. Maximum flying weight is 5 kilograms
f. You must be an LSF level 1 SAP or eSAP 1 Member or greater! If you are not an LSF member please download a SAP and/or an eSAP form from here: http://www.silentflight.org/index.ph...gram/lsf-tasks and start your flying now! Forward to your Country Coordinators as appropriate. Your LSF information will be verified and your scores will be thrown out if you are not an LSF member!
g. Team photo and pilot names/LSF number required. Please send to: lsf_President@silentflight.org. Your team picture is your registration. All team pictures must be in prior to 9/21/18.

h. Winning team in WOODIE will receive US$200 from the LSF
i. Winning team in ALES will receive US$200 from the LSF.

Wood Crafters Construction rule:
i. Wing and Stab are built up from wood.
ii. No restriction on spar construction or materials.
iii. No Molded D-Tube leading edge construction.
iv. Fuselage can be wood, glassed wood or molded Fiberglass including the fin.
v. Carbon reinforcement can be used on any part of the structure.

j. A PAYPAL address required from one of the winning team members.
k. Winning Team in Electric can’t win in Woodie and visa versa.
l. Four person teams (You may fly both or either to enter)
i. 5 Rounds in each platform type
ii. Woodie – 10 Minute Working Time and 9 Minute glide time round, landings as a bonus
iii. Electric - 10 minute glide time round and 1 point per second deduction for time over/under 10 minutes, landings as a bonus
iv. LSF Electric launch is 30 Sec / 200 meter
v. 300M line MAX (winch to turnaround) for the woodies.
vi. Each pilot must wait 15 minutes between each flight
vii. Maximum of two team members airborne at any given time
viii. Each team must fly from same airfield/location
m. Read the watch: MM:SS (Minutes/Seconds)
n. Varios and Skegs permitted on Electrics only
o. Woodie Standard Landing Tape: 10 meter tapes - IN [anywhere in the 10 meter diameter (100 points) or OUT (0 Points)
p. ALES Standard Landing Tape: 10 meter tapes / 5 points per meter. 50 points for landing within the first 1 meter diameter all the way to 5 points at the 10 meter diameter mark
q. Zero Landing points for landings that shed parts or are inverted in the landing tape circle

Use this contest to get your Level 2 landing tasks done!

Regards,
Wally
LSF President

I don't know if I'll be able to do this or even get 3 other pilots to fly it with me but this sounds really cool and I commend the LSF for organizing this.

Ryan

I will be organizing at least one team in Albuquerque. 20 October gives us lots of time to get ready.

Yours, Greg

Sounds fun.

Mike

To bad it is a contest limited to LSF or eSAP, sound like fun. Some like me see no need do something they have no way to complete.

Art

Originally Posted by old1104

Some like me see no need do something they have no way to complete.

Art,

I will almost certainly never complete the SAP or eSAP. Having worked on it for over 20 years my experience is there is a lot of value in it regardless of what level a participant acheaves.


Ryan

Originally Posted by old1104

To bad it is a contest limited to LSF or eSAP, sound like fun. Some like me see no need do something they have no way to complete.

Art

Art,
Its the journey and the experience gathered along the way. I may never get to Level 5 myself, but I am sure having a whale of a good time getting there though. Learned a lot so far, met really good people, created a few friends along the way too.

The idea was to garner more participation in the LSF. The Aussies agreed to the T&Cs proffered. Level 1 you have probably finished many times over in your life if you have been flying sailplanes for any length. On the lighter side of life if you and your team mates win you get some moolah in your pocket. LSF level 1 is only a 2 day affair. Two 5 minute flights not on the same day and some landings. I will gladly send you an LSF form via snail mail to get you going!
Wally

My suggestion for folks looking at the SAP and frustrated with their inability to complete it is to look at each level independently. Instead of joining the cub scouts with the plan of becoming an Eagle Scout (which very flew ever actually do) join the cub scouts for what it is and gain the benefits of it. Then decide if you want to continue with scouting each year and finally decide if you want to work on Eagle Scout. In that vein look at each level of the SAP to find the value of the level and then decide if you are going to work on that level.


Ryan

Thanks for the offer.

I only have electric planes. I have to drive 2 hours to fly off a winch if they set it up. So winch flying is not an option.

As I read the levels I can not complete some of them so why try. There are no glider fliers in my club. Well I guess on guy does have a glider he flies at times. Another one I sold a glider but he never flown it. I currently have three electric gliders ... Bubble Dancer I built, a Super AVA that I can not spot land, and an older version of Red Merle. You would think the Bubble Dancer and Super AVA would handle some what alike but as to landing they do not.

I really do not see what I gain from trying to complete different levels. If I remember some slope flying is part of the task. I am sure there are sites I might be able to fly off a slope but I know of none. I asked a couple who use to fly some slope where they flew. They said it all grown up and can not be flown off of.

Two days ago I could have stayed up as long as I wanted. I decided to thermal up to about 140m drop down to about 80m and look for another thermal and go back up. I did for about half an hour and decided to land. Then did it again. To me that is fun and what I enjoy.

Today that would have been hard to do. Sure I could find lift. Riding the lift was an issue. Never could find the center. I was in an out of lift and could very slowly gain altitude. I move around and ever thing I found was the same. Hard to ride. Now the experts could most likely work that lift much better. Working on the tasks will not help me learn to be a better flier.

Maybe if there was a good flier I could learn from and not learn it the hard way maybe they would be able to explain why doing the levels would help me have more fun flying.

I will attend 1 or 2 contest a year. Why I like to watch the better fliers work the lift and try and see what they are reading from the gliders. I do not expect to compete to win. I am just getting a reading as to how I am doing. Spot landing would keep me from being competitive right now as I can not hit the spot.

As to spot landing I drop my hat on the ground right in front of me and hit the spot one time. I scared the shiii out of me. That was with the Red Merle as I easier to land with. I normally stand 10 ft behind the spot and almost never hit the spot. Lucky to get points on landings. I have done 50 landing on some days but not getting much better with the S AVA. The other two I can do much better.

I am sorry I rambling ... thanks anyway. Sorry as I will not be able to fly in your event but it sounds like fun.

Maybe if I had someone to do the levels with it might be fun but myself.

Originally Posted by old1104

I really do not see what I gain from trying to complete different levels.

I could be wrong but from reading what you just posted working on L1 and L2 would help improve your spot landings. You don't need another glider pilot to work with for those levels. Any non relative can witness those tasks. Getting a witness out observing you fly and ready to sign your form for the spot landings will help you improve because an independent observer who you have explained the tasks to that is ready to observe can often pickup on things you might be doing wrong even if they don't fly gliders. You don't need a winch or anything fancy. There is an electric version of the program and even for the original tow hook version high starts work great. All of the models you mention can land well. Working on L1 and L2 would help you discover that.

Each level has other benefits on its own as well but that would be something to consider for starters.


Ryan

Thanks Ryan.

If there was someone who wanted to do the levels with me I might try them. As to flying my gliders I generally flying by myself. Early in the morning I fly some with others but none are gliders. Half are gas power planes. After about 9:30 they all leave and I have the area to myself. I just enjoy flying. The contest let me know if I'm getting better. My better days are behind me. I started RC after I retired. I can tell the difference in the last 6 years as my eyes are not what they used to be.

Now I am attempting to build my first bagged with glider. I am using Curtis Red Merle VII airfoil and basic wing layout. I finished cutting the foam to make the wing.

I have an early Red Merle. I purchased it to replace Jon Stone's Supra Wing I lost in a contest. I converted Jon Stone's it to electric. I have the winch fuselage and tail feathers from Jon's Supra. The Red Merle flew good when I got it but did not fly like Jon's Supra wing did. Jon had told me how to set up the Supra to get it to fly good.

That is where another might have helped. I'd set the surfaces to the spec but Red Merle did not fly as I expected. I notice the flaps servo's where to weak to hold position. I turned over the glider and noticed the flaps change position. I changed the servos to stronger ones and boy does it fly different. It flies much like the first Supra.

So in round about way I am saying I see no gain for me to do Levels as they will not help me be a better flier. Driving 2 hours to get to fly with others would help if I could do it enough to get help as to what I am doing wrong.

I can not set up E Super AVA spoiler where it aids landing. I have a Bubble Dancer which I have no problems setting up. The Bubble Dancer lands fine. I probably have over 100 landing on both planes. The Red Merle has less landing as it is much easier to control during landings.

Thanks Again. Sorry for the long winded reply.

Art

Originally Posted by old1104

If there was someone who wanted to do the levels with me I might try them. As to flying my gliders I generally flying by myself. Early in the morning I fly some with others but none are gliders. Half are gas power planes. After about 9:30 they all leave and I have the area to myself.

I think we have 2 things going on here. First the Level 1 requirement for this postal contest for you is a bit of a red herring. This postal contest from my read of the rules is designed for teams of 4 pilots that all fly at the same field October 20, 2018. Second, maybe if you started L1 and used those early morning flyers you fly with as witnesses one or more might become interested enough in what you are doing to try it themselves. The sort of "heck, I could do better than that" type thing might pop into their minds and then you might have another person to fly with locally.

Originally Posted by old1104

I can not set up E Super AVA spoiler where it aids landing.

Why do you think that is?

Ryan

Ryan

Three thinks make the difference between the E Super AVA and the E Bubble Dancer. The wing loading on the Super AVA is higher. The stab is on the small size for the Super AVA when compared to the Bubble Dancer. The location of the spoiler on the Bubble Dancer is farther aft on the wing that the Super AVA. I set the trim on both gliders the same when gliding with the spoiler all the way up.

I have not measure the washout on the Super AVA but I assume it is about like the Bubble Dancer. The Bubble Dancer slows down and does not balloon up where the Super AVA balloons up ... way up and would stalls and drop a tip.

Now both glider have about the same recovery in a dive test. I checked the cg location to see if it was the difference. I thought about moving the cg forward on the Super AVA to see if that helps the landing set up.

The amount of trim to balance the Bubble Dancer with the spoiler up is less with the Bubble Dancer than the Super AVA. I trimmed the Super AVA to fly level with the spoiler 1/2 up and approach in that setting. To land the spoiler is set to dive when the spoiler is all the way up. The setting was chosen to keep the Super AVA from ballooning when the spoiler is opened the to set down.

I had tried to add down elevator manually when I open the Spoiler to set down. It worked most of the time but I could not seem to get it right every time. I changed it to dive. I hope the tips do not break off the Super AVA is it comes in hard one to many time as I dive harder than I wanted.

Art

Originally Posted by old1104

The wing loading on the Super AVA is higher.

You should be able to test to see if that has much affect (I don't believe it does) by ballasting the BD. I have ballasted my Allegro and haven't noticed it have any affect on how the model lands.

Originally Posted by old1104

The stab is on the small size for the Super Ava when compared to the Bubble Dancer.

That would be pretty easy to test out. You are already scratch building a much bigger project you could pretty easily scratch build a bigger stab and test it out. Or you could even just get some cardstock and extend the area of the stab by taping it onto the stab at the stab trailing edge.

Originally Posted by old1104

The location of the spoiler on the Bubble Dancer is farther aft on the wing that the Super AVA.

This would be a bit harder to validate but although I don't know for sure I have ever seen a super Ava fly I have seen plenty of regular Avas land and they seemed to be similar enough to the Bubble Dancer and Allegro I have flown.

Ryan

When I purchased the Super AVA the seller said he was getting rid of the AVA as it was to hard to fly.

I added trips to the stab on the Super AVA to reduce the stab drop when down wind in down air. It worked. I had laid out a bigger stab for the Super AVA but never built it. I will be building bigger stabs for the Red Merle and my build one for the AVA to see if that's the problem.

Art