Thread Tools
Feb 13, 2018, 03:04 PM
Registered User
Pappyjkns's Avatar
Thread OP
Discussion

F3RES Event


Our club is preparing to hold at least one if not more F3RES contest during the upcoming flying season. The problem is, we have maybe 3-4 pilots with F3RES planes. There are a number of members who have the older 2M sailplanes (think Gentle Lady) so we were wondering what kind of handicap system could be set up to level the flying field so to speak. I don't even know if it is possible but we are at least looking into it. The goal being to be inclusive rather than restrictive and promote member involvement in flying contests.

Anyone have any thoughts or ideas regarding this?

Cheers!
Lyle
Sign up now
to remove ads between posts
Feb 13, 2018, 04:09 PM
supreme being of leisure
ZAGNUT's Avatar
a lot of the older planes probably won't have spoilers so a good place to start is to leave the spoilers unplugged on the newer ones.
Feb 13, 2018, 04:26 PM
B for Bruce
BMatthews's Avatar
I think it would be a mistake to lump them into the same scoring range for a couple of reasons. First is that good pilots will win regardless of what they are flying or whatever the handicap might be. Second is that any sort of "handicap" is going to be at best a guess.

So my solution would be to make it a two class event. F3RES for proper F3RES models or those with Gentle Ladies and the like that simply want to mix it up even if they are at a disadvantage and have a second separately scored category for the old school models. Score and fly them all the same but simply flag then in the scoring as the "old school" or "I wish I were an F3RES" category.

To keep it totally inclusive the old school stuff would fly alongside the new style models at the flight line just as if they were flying an F3RES. Don't separate the flying order at all. Mix everyone up so they talk a lot between old and new.

Only at the end would there be a little search down the list for those with a * by their name or an "X" in a category box indicating that they were in the "I wish I were an F3RES", "Old School" or whatever you want to call it category.

And you may also want to separate both the new and the old categories into two skill levels. The old "Expert" or "Advanced" for those who fly really well or have flown many contests over the years and a "Sportsman" for the sport and occasional weekend warriors. Maybe even a "novice" class for those with little or no contest time.

The key is that the more faces that stand and wave or that end up at the front or get a "Podium" spot on the results the better. We all like to be good within our skill level division. So the more that get recognized as such the more I believe it'll keep them coming back.

For the Novices how about a coaching program? Any of the better Experts or higher level Sportsmen that are willing to pass on what they know could be assigned to a novice that asks for aid. The would pass on hints during the day and be allowed to stand by the novice while flying to better guide them. A lot of novices could well use the hints while stressing out on all the things they are doing to put together a flight. Mind you there's room here for personalities to clash or over ride each other. So if the wrong folks are paired up it might hurt as much as it helps. But if you know a few that could work well with "softly coaching through suggestions" it could be a big encouragement for many novices.
Feb 13, 2018, 04:53 PM
Sonoran Laser Art
It would be very easy when announcing scores to honorably mention the highest scorering pilots flying planes over 20 oz. I fly my F3Res 2m electric in F5J and ALES against big Moldies and that's what they typically do. Start at the bottom and work up the list. If they place 1ST to 3RD they get a double mention. It's very good for moral this way.
Feb 13, 2018, 05:47 PM
Registered User
Gratter's Avatar
Bruce’s idea is good. Split into 2 classes, modern and vintage. Then maybe have a fly off of each of the first placers to crown a grand champion. A great flier could kick any ones booty no matter what they are flying.
Feb 13, 2018, 06:08 PM
Registered User
R.M. Gellart's Avatar
Guys, I can remember a time when a guy from Dayton, beat Nat’l Champions with a dead stock GL versus unlimited ships. So why would you even consider splitting them from the others? They meet the construction requirements and so would be perfectly legal and capable. Do not make this more complicated than needed.

Marc
Feb 13, 2018, 06:25 PM
Registered User
There is no right way or wrong way, except when folks cannot fly. What we do in these parts, is everyone flies together, and is scored together. Top three places are awarded accordingly, but so is the top-placing "legacy" bird. Or, the top-placing old guy. Or, whatever. If the oldest guy is flying a Gentle Lady and also beats out everyone else, well guess what? He gets three trophies. Or, three of whatever we are handing out that day.

We also routinely prohibit spoiler use, if there are more than two or three spoilerless birds entered. I mean, why not? Just good practice in energy management for when the day comes that your spoiler is busted for some reason.

What we always try, though, is this: everyone flies.

Yours, Greg
Feb 13, 2018, 08:29 PM
B for Bruce
BMatthews's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gratter
Bruce’s idea is good. Split into 2 classes, modern and vintage. Then maybe have a fly off of each of the first placers to crown a grand champion. A great flier could kick any ones booty no matter what they are flying.
Oh... I.... REALLY.... like.... that.... idea....

So often some of the plebes start leaving before the day is done if their flight is finished. A test like that and the rooting for the supposed underdog could easily have the whole field on their toes at the suspense. And in the meantime while waiting for the results you'd have more able bodies to pack away all the contest stuff other than the last two 'starts. GENIUS ! ! ! !


Quote:
Originally Posted by R.M. Gellart
Guys, I can remember a time when a guy from Dayton, beat Nat’l Champions with a dead stock GL versus unlimited ships. So why would you even consider splitting them from the others? They meet the construction requirements and so would be perfectly legal and capable. Do not make this more complicated than needed.

Marc
As I recall reading that was a pretty special day that pandered to the strengths of the GL while ripping the rug of advantage out from under the "glass slippers" and other high tech stuff. Plus it was a darn good pilot doing the flying in the very light and spotty lift. In more "normal" conditions a kit built GL or Riser won't get as high as the new F3RES models. And it'll sink faster with the old "Legacy" (that's a really slick name for the "old school" category) airfoil choices. Now if the pilots can hook some lift of course that takes the day all the time. Lift is the ultimate equalizer. But for those rounds where the air is all neutral or sinking, it's a contest after all so there's bound to be some of these, the Legacy designs will be at a distinct disadvantage compared to the modern stuff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by glidermang
There is no right way or wrong way, except when folks cannot fly. What we do in these parts, is everyone flies together, and is scored together. Top three places are awarded accordingly, but so is the top-placing "legacy" bird. Or, the top-placing old guy. Or, whatever. If the oldest guy is flying a Gentle Lady and also beats out everyone else, well guess what? He gets three trophies. Or, three of whatever we are handing out that day.
AMEN! And the more evenly all can fly within the same air the better too. I used to hate that when I was called up to fly I had just watched a nice big lift cycle go through and I'd be going up into the cold sinky air. The phrase "if I didn't have bad luck I'd have no luck at all" applies here. So rounds where we're scored off the highest placing person is a big plus to my way of thinking. And the more folks fly the happier they'll be and the more likely to come back to the next event.

And I really like the idea of some random thing like Best Old Guy. But don't forget the Best Novice or some name for the category of those with less than a dozen matches under thair belts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by glidermang
We also routinely prohibit spoiler use, if there are more than two or three spoilerless birds entered. I mean, why not? Just good practice in energy management for when the day comes that your spoiler is busted for some reason.
For a fun day low key club meet that might be an option. And in fact likely a LOT of fun.

But for posted contests that might draw some folks from further away that come to the field expecting to fly a certain way I think that would be a sore point and I'm not sure that would fly. I suspect the risk of having a surprise like that handed to someone that just drove a long way would result in them not coming to any future meetings. After all we usually FIX our models and replace stuff that needs replacing. And we practice and test and learn using all the controls available to us. After all it's not "F3RE and sometimes S".
Feb 13, 2018, 09:10 PM
Registered User
R.M. Gellart's Avatar
BM, so what if someone shows up with a newer design ship and no spoilers? You can fly RES with no spoilers, has been done. I find it kind of amazing that is an issue to you.

Marc
Feb 14, 2018, 02:10 AM
Registered User
One can always point out any non-standard rules when publicizing a contest.

I kind of like Cloud Sniffer's idea. Easier on the CD, I suspect, than running two classes.
Feb 14, 2018, 09:06 AM
Registered User
Pappyjkns's Avatar
Thread OP
Gentlemen:
First of all, thank you to everyone that offered their advice.....greatly appreciated! As I recall, the discussion at our club level was a handicap based on weight.....the heavier the model the greater the handicap. Some really good points have been raised not the least of which is that other visiting pilots might be put off if the standard F3RES rules were not in play. We have scheduled a flying contest every other week so I guess no one should not be too put out if one event was restricted to just the newer F3RES birds. Attendance for our regular events has been less than stellar and I have a feeling the new F3RES class might bring a resurgence of activity.

This matter is yet to be resolved and will undoubtedly be discussed at the next couple meetings before a consensus is reached. I will keep you updated.

Cheers!
Lyle
Feb 14, 2018, 02:24 PM
B for Bruce
BMatthews's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by R.M. Gellart
BM, so what if someone shows up with a newer design ship and no spoilers? You can fly RES with no spoilers, has been done. I find it kind of amazing that is an issue to you.

Marc
It's not an issue for me. Much of my early glider flying even in contests was done using models with only rudder and elevator.

It's the concern over anyone coming from some distance away and finding out only at the field that the folks running the meet want to change the rules and add such a limitation at the last moment. If folks don't know that this could be done at the field it leaves room for a lot of bad feelings. And the sport doesn't need that when it's already so difficult to con folks into participating in actual matches these days.

Now if the possibility of such a last minute change is pointed out in the notices that went out that's another thing. Then folks can decide if the possibility of flying in this manner bothers them or not before the key hits the ignition lock.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pappyjkns
We have scheduled a flying contest every other week so I guess no one should not be too put out if one event was restricted to just the newer F3RES birds.
I'd suggest that glidermang's suggestion to make any event as inclusive as you can is a good way to go. Why cut down on the chance for folks to join in? The only "limit" should be the fact that you only have the F3RES limited hi starts as launching devices. Outside of that any additional legacy or skill based categories are just a tick of a box in the scoring setup. And it provides everyone with A)more manpower to run the match and B) more fun as it's more social when there's more folks on the field. So
Last edited by BMatthews; Feb 14, 2018 at 02:29 PM.
Feb 15, 2018, 03:29 PM
The King Moonracer of balsa.
Windependence's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pappyjkns
Gentlemen:
First of all, thank you to everyone that offered their advice.....greatly appreciated! As I recall, the discussion at our club level was a handicap based on weight.....the heavier the model the greater the handicap. Some really good points have been raised not the least of which is that other visiting pilots might be put off if the standard F3RES rules were not in play. We have scheduled a flying contest every other week so I guess no one should not be too put out if one event was restricted to just the newer F3RES birds. Attendance for our regular events has been less than stellar and I have a feeling the new F3RES class might bring a resurgence of activity.

This matter is yet to be resolved and will undoubtedly be discussed at the next couple meetings before a consensus is reached. I will keep you updated.

Cheers!
Lyle
Just a thought here, you could allow the older/heavier designs a couple of extra pounds of pull on the hi-start when they launch. That would even out the launches a little and let the rest of it be. Keep it simple and if pilots complain then rethink the issue.
Feb 15, 2018, 04:21 PM
R2R
R2R
St Augustine RC Flyers
R2R's Avatar
Keep everyone in the same class and vary the awards like glidermang suggested. If anything, hopefully, this will encourage the non-F3RES flyers to buy and build an F3RES kit.


Quick Reply
Message:

Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Category Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Discussion F3RES Rules (with English translations) glidermang Thermal 91 Feb 22, 2021 06:05 PM
Idea F3RES Events ?? The_Builder Thermal 2 Dec 02, 2017 09:19 PM
Discussion Allegro lite mod for F3RES cglynn Thermal 96 Nov 13, 2017 10:10 PM
Discussion 2017 West Coast Classic Pattern Event Calendar-New Event Added Vertigo II Fuel Power Events 6 Aug 30, 2017 03:04 PM
Discussion BEST COMBAT EVENT EVER! Super77th.com event is ON! netlag Slope 14 Jul 02, 2016 03:06 PM