IRSA and Radio Sailing Politics in General - Page 4 - RC Groups
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Jan 12, 2018, 05:46 PM
Paul M #06
Pbob22's Avatar
So my question is, if a skipper competes in an event that has World Sailing and a National Authority approval, but is not a IRSA recognised class, can IRSA still impose a penalty under this policy. I think that this maybe one for the bush lawyers.

When will IRSA realise that the more barriers they put up, the less people will be attracted to the sport, or should I say, their views of the sport.

Think back to the original Mountain Bike , developed for the fringe, wanting to get more from a bike, than just from A to B. Now it has, World, National, Regional Championships, Olympic sport status( I am not saying the RC Sailing be in the Olympics), professional circuit and global acceptance. I am sure that, the establishment at the beginning of the journey were not very impressed with this young pup. The same could be said about numerous other sports, including sailing.

So, when are the IRSA going to get their heads out of the sand and in stead of trying to protect what they have, they should embrace and include what is happening in the world, because if they don't, they will see themselves playing in the small pond, while the rest of us play in the big pond with our new friends.
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Jan 13, 2018, 04:53 AM
Registered User
A few key facts (apologies in advance to those who do not like me 'regurgitating' rules and regulations) that may assist you in reading and analysing some of IRSA's latest pronouncements. I leave you to make your own judgement :
1. IRSA has no authority to prohibit an event. Only World Sailing can do that.
2. An event is only prohibited when it has been listed on the World Sailing website on a list maintained for this purpose (see WS Reg19.20(f)). An event may meet the criteria to be prohibited, but this is not automatic. WS must make a deliberate decision to prohibit an event. At present no events are so listed
3. IRSA has no authority to suspend or revoke Competition Eligibility or World Sailing Eligibility. Only World Sailing (or, in limited circumstances a WS Member National Authority) can do that (see WS Reg 19.19). At present only 3 people are suspended, one for a breach of rule 69, the two others for matters linked to anti-doping regulations.
4. An appeal or review of such a decision will be carried out under WS Reg 35 Disciplinary, Appeals and Review Code by an MNA or WS - not by IRSA
5. At world or continental championships no entry outside stated quotas can be rejected or cancelled without first obtaining the approval of the relevant WS Class Association (IRSA Class Associations are not WS Class Associations) or World Sailing (RRS76.3). IRSA cannot refuse an entry on the basis that the competitor has participated in an event that IRSA does not like!
6. IRSA has no monopoly on radio sailing world championships. WS Reg 25.3 merely gives IRSA automatic approval to run 3 World Championships pper year for the classes designated as IRSA Classes.
7. Other classes may organise a World Championship by either:
- applying to become a World Sailing Class Association, in which case WS Reg 25.2.1 applies
- by requesting WS approval under WS Reg 25.6.
In both cases WS may chose to consult IRSA, but the decision remains with WS.

Hope this helps!
Jan 13, 2018, 07:37 AM
Paul M #06
Pbob22's Avatar
RSIJ, thank you very much for that.

Paul M
Jan 15, 2018, 04:01 PM
Beyond Hyperbole
World Sailing has said (in the past) that all things pertaining to radio controlled sailboat racing will be delegated to IRSA, so the notion of going "over the head" of IRSA probably will not be productive
Jan 16, 2018, 01:34 PM
Registered User
Which would explain why the agreement between IRSA and IOMICA includes details of what would happen if IOMICA decided to become a WS International Class?

World Sailing is evolving fast. Windsurfing, Kiteboarding and Disabled Sailing are all now managed 'in house'.
Jan 16, 2018, 06:16 PM
Beyond Hyperbole
nobody (particularly those at IRSA) wants to lose control or diminish their sphere of influence
Jan 17, 2018, 12:34 PM
Registered User
Dick L.'s Avatar
if they keep going as they have been, there may not be too many left to try to control. The only "control" they have is what we currently afford to them.
Jan 17, 2018, 01:22 PM
Registered User
Unfortunately, not true. IRSA has the ear of the bureaucrats that run World Sailing. IRSA’s power and authority flow from that relationship and the lack of active opposition from the rc sailing community.
Jan 17, 2018, 05:29 PM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Corbett
Unfortunately, not true. IRSA has the ear of the bureaucrats that run World Sailing. IRSA’s power and authority flow from that relationship and the lack of active opposition from the rc sailing community.
I understand that there is remarkably little real contact between IRSA and WS.
I would agree however that there is a need to propose an alternative to the current Executive.
Any volunteers?
Jan 18, 2018, 02:14 AM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by RSIJ
I understand that there is remarkably little real contact between IRSA and WS.
I would agree however that there is a need to propose an alternative to the current Executive.
Any volunteers?
What would an alternative executive do?
I have read lots of vitriol against the current exec, but don't see they have done much to deserve this whilst in office.
Maybe those who are so vocal can advise us what they would do differently?
Maybe start with the facts about what recent IRSA policy has done to change the general radio sailing community.

I will accept that they are currently not doing so well on the publicity and promotion of the sport in my eyes.
Jan 18, 2018, 07:03 AM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashbyroadeast
What would an alternative executive do?
I have read lots of vitriol against the current exec, but don't see they have done much to deserve this whilst in office.
Maybe those who are so vocal can advise us what they would do differently?
Maybe start with the facts about what recent IRSA policy has done to change the general radio sailing community.

I will accept that they are currently not doing so well on the publicity and promotion of the sport in my eyes.
A start would be to cease publishing long policy documents that can be resumed in one sentence.
Secondly, make efforts to consult member nations and radio sailors before changing class rules and other matters.
Thirdly, run IRSA as the world authority for radio sailing rather than as a multiple class association for classes that have failed to establish an autonomous class organisation.
4th Remember that multiple certification was introduced as a temporary measure whilst the classes sorted out how to deal with a problem of boats having several certs
I could continue... but this would be my personal opinion. The key change should be a change in attitude- discuss with all stakeholders (apologies for using this much abused term but it is accurate in this case) before publishing finished documents. A case in point is the Constitutional Assembly. One would have expected this to open with a discussion on what is wrong with the current arrangements, what needs changing, what are the desired outcomes... before drafting a proposal. Instead, national members have been presented with a document that has already failed to be approved by the members. This document proposes a radical reorientation of IRSA to become an organisation run by a small council with no effective checks and balances. The role of national members (national radio sailing organisations) would be minimal, IOMICA would have no vote or represention while the classes administered by IRSA (including, presumably, the ephemeral IRSA 65) would have a seat on the board.

Does this answer your question?
Jan 18, 2018, 10:13 AM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by RSIJ
A start would be to cease publishing long policy documents that can be resumed in one sentence.
Secondly, make efforts to consult member nations and radio sailors before changing class rules and other matters.
Thirdly, run IRSA as the world authority for radio sailing rather than as a multiple class association for classes that have failed to establish an autonomous class organisation.
4th Remember that multiple certification was introduced as a temporary measure whilst the classes sorted out how to deal with a problem of boats having several certs
I could continue... but this would be my personal opinion. The key change should be a change in attitude- discuss with all stakeholders (apologies for using this much-abused term but it is accurate in this case) before publishing finished documents. A case in point is the Constitutional Assembly. One would have expected this to open with a discussion on what is wrong with the current arrangements, what needs changing, what are the desired outcomes... before drafting a proposal. Instead, national members have been presented with a document that has already failed to be approved by the members. This document proposes a radical reorientation of IRSA to become an organisation run by a small council with no effective checks and balances. The role of national members (national radio sailing organisations) would be minimal, IOMICA would have no vote or represention while the classes administered by IRSA (including, presumably, the ephemeral IRSA 65) would have a seat on the board.

Does this answer your question?
1. Agree-style could be different
2. If the whole world was canvassed do you think any decisions would be made? Arent there members of this forum who are in the steering groups? I haven't heard them say much about not being consulted?
3. Isn't this what they were voted in on?
4. Agree - this isn't the best position, but it would be interesting to know how many boats this actually concerns.

Surely if they were voted in on a class-based manifesto, it's only to be expected that their plans for the CA and organisation will run along these lines.

What I actually see is a small number of people criticising an even smaller group of people who are doing what they said they would do.

Did this happen before? Would it happen if others replaced them; and what would those who replaced them actually offer as a manifesto?

I have no allegiance to IRSA or leanings for or against what they propose, but other than passing the time of day, I'm not sure what this thread is trying to achieve
Last edited by Ashbyroadeast; Jan 18, 2018 at 10:24 AM.
Jan 18, 2018, 12:17 PM
John Ball
hiljoball's Avatar
On point 3. They ran on a platform that included changing IRSA executive from a Nations based (via the Regional Officers) to a CLass based executive. But what they have provided in these motions is different - it is not a class based exec, otherwise why is the IOMICA excluded? and why would any class that achieves ICA status become excluded? What they have proposed is to change the IRSA into a Super Class Assoc (representing the M,10R, A and soon the 65 classes). But this is done without creating any member voting processes - so the Exec makes all the decisions, not the owners around the world.

Meanwhile, in making this structural change to the decision making to reduce the input of the member nations, and focus it in a very small group, the IRSA is still the designated body for administration of RC sailing world wide with the ability to affect all of our racing. with much reduced oversight.

John
Last edited by hiljoball; Yesterday at 09:36 AM. Reason: Corrected error said 36 class - meant 65 class
Jan 18, 2018, 12:54 PM
Registered User
On point 2: "Not being consulted" is an understatement.

Cheers,

Earl
Yesterday, 03:30 AM
Registered User
john ball

what 36 class are you talking about ? the USA (36/600) or UK (36r) class. both different in terms of depth, sail area etc.


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