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Nov 19, 2017, 01:25 PM
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love for diesels...... expensive love??


Hi Guys!

i just want to know why diesel engines are so expensive..... i use to follow some on ebay.... and people use to bit higher than real cost... i mean.... a new PAW 55 with Dr. Diesel cost 99 USD and on ebay they go as expensive as 125 USD!!!
other story is about MP Jet 40, a good price in icare can go for 75usd and people bit over 100 USD!

Just get this 2 engines, all new, one with box, other not for 60usd each.... was a good price????
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Nov 19, 2017, 02:19 PM
B for Bruce
BMatthews's Avatar
I don't know about the MP stuff but the price on a PAW 55 is listed directly from PAW at 52 Pounds. In USD that's $70. So Dr D is tacking on another $20 for his time and costs. That seems reasonable to me... not that it makes it less damaging to the wallet!
Nov 19, 2017, 02:35 PM
ffkiwi
Quote:
Originally Posted by colibriguitars
Hi Guys!

i just want to know why diesel engines are so expensive..... i use to follow some on ebay.... and people use to bit higher than real cost... i mean.... a new PAW 55 with Dr. Diesel cost 99 USD and on ebay they go as expensive as 125 USD!!!
other story is about MP Jet 40, a good price in icare can go for 75usd and people bit over 100 USD!

Just get this 2 engines, all new, one with box, other not for 60usd each.... was a good price????
Both probably a bit over priced-whereas 60USD for the pair would have been a bit of a bargain. Ebay can be all over the place when it comes to price and seemingly there is a higher proportion of ignorant purchasers there than in the general population (that's a diplomatic way of putting it!-you may think of other descriptions...)-in your case both are very common diesels-made in in the tens of thousands. PAWs-practically having the market to themselves-in terms of general purpose diesels-are probably priced at what the market can bear-why be competitive when there is little or no competition?

I'm not sure I would buy your argument that diesels are expensive-go and have a look at the retail prices on MECOA's website [mecoa.com]-these are the new prices for US manufactured engines from several well known marques (all currently owned by MECOA)

The MP Jets are produced to very high standards from very good materials-but they are still relatively low production items-that in itself means they can't be sold for rock bottom prices-and the only ones that are these days are the ones manufactured in China-even the Russians have found out over the past couple of decades that it is hard to sell a mass produced economy engine in the west-and have wisely concentrated on the opposite end of the market-the highly quality specialised engine niche market.

You also have to recall that the 'golden age' for model diesels was the 1950s-when a good proportion of the modelling world-other than the Americas-used them almost exclusively-that means all of Europe,the UK, Australia and NZ-that makes for a pretty big market-or did then-and of course manufacturers responded in terms of scale-which kept prices affordable-but the advent of decent R/C gear-and the growth of R/C throttled glows from the early 60s on-but a huge dent in the diesel market (not that there were many big ones anyway)-in much the same fashion that electric has done to the IC engine market in recent years-and diesel usage has been in severe decline ever since. Periodically small manufacturers come and go-but the overall market is tiny in percentage terms. India is probably the only country where domestic consumption is enough to support a manufacturer-simply because of their overall population.

ChrisM
'ffkiwi'
Nov 19, 2017, 03:09 PM
B for Bruce
BMatthews's Avatar
That's a good point. A basic OS Max .15 is $90 USD out of Tower Hobbies. And things go up rapidly from there.
Nov 19, 2017, 04:16 PM
I'd rather be flying.....
JeffMac's Avatar
i was going to suggest checking with Ed Carlson - but it appears his website is down ???

Ebay is a hit and miss buying experience ...... many sellers have no idea what they have or it's true condition, but i have gotten very lucky with some truly good deals.....

60 USD for the NIB AM is a good price.... I have a Sharma 3.2 which seems to be a very well made engine, they do have 1.5cc size Diesel.... Don't overlook the MK-16 or MK-17 1.49 diesel which can be found very reasonably priced....

Best regards,

jeff
Nov 19, 2017, 07:41 PM
ffkiwi
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffMac
i was going to suggest checking with Ed Carlson - but it appears his website is down ???

Ebay is a hit and miss buying experience ...... many sellers have no idea what they have or it's true condition, but i have gotten very lucky with some truly good deals.....

60 USD for the NIB AM is a good price.... I have a Sharma 3.2 which seems to be a very well made engine, they do have 1.5cc size Diesel.... Don't overlook the MK-16 or MK-17 1.49 diesel which can be found very reasonably priced....

Best regards,

jeff
Agreed-and the MKs were produced (and may still be for all I know) in vast quantities for internal consumption in the USSR. The tricky issue with old engines-and its not limited to diesel engines BTW-is spares-which tend to be virtually non existent-the AMs have been out of production for about two and a half decades (and that was the third manufacturer!)-the DCs for over three decades-and 'consumable' spares like gaskets and NVAs can be the difference between having a runner and a dud-let alone major items like piston liner assemblies or crankshafts! Likewise rods can be an issue-though a competent model engineer can knock one up without too much trouble. There are plenty of unusable 50s and 60s engines of all brands sitting in drawers and boxes because of some minor part like a screw, or gasket....try finding parts for something like an OS Pet-of which 300,000 were manufactured of the Pet-II model alone! You generally have to resort to cannibalization to keep them running.....

This where brands such as PAW and Sharma have the edge-not only in quality-but in parts support. PAW in particular a very good with sorting out 'older' models sent back for servicing (and they been making engines commercially since 1957!...60 years [and for their own use even earlier than that]-and they have a degree of commonality between models-things like comp screws, NVAs etc The Sharmas-with which I have no personal experience-seem to have a similar philosophy in their production.
Nov 19, 2017, 07:56 PM
Edubarca
Edubarca's Avatar
The problem with diesel and even small glow engines is as stated above, a drastic reduction in market. Cox used to make more than a million glow engines per year during the golden age of small model aircraft, the fifties, sixties and seventies. Now with electrics, there is a very tiny market for .049 engines which is a pity because in my opinion, they are unique and cannot be replaced. But we have to live with it!!! I imagine diesels are in the same position. They were never popular here in Colombia mostly due to the fuel they use with a totally banned ingredient: ether.

So we will have to pay higher prices for small engines or fly electrics, which I personally dislike or rubber powered.

It is similar to film photography. When there was no digital imaging. rolls and developing were cheap and widely available. Nowadays a Fujichrome slide film costs a small fortune let alone developing. Fortunately Kodak is re-introducing Ektachrome due to a strong comeback of film photography but we hope it will be reasonable priced.
Nov 19, 2017, 10:28 PM
ffkiwi
Quote:
Originally Posted by Edubarca
The problem with diesel and even small glow engines is as stated above, a drastic reduction in market. Cox used to make more than a million glow engines per year during the golden age of small model aircraft, the fifties, sixties and seventies. Now with electrics, there is a very tiny market for .049 engines which is a pity because in my opinion, they are unique and cannot be replaced..
And equally pertinent to the discussion-the 1/2A market was huge-numerically-as well as Cox you had Herkimer (OK) and Wenmac./McCoy (and for a brief period Fox)-all competing in the US-but a significant proportion of that market (especially in the 60s!) was the 'toy' market-the ready to fly/ready to run market -as distinct from the 'modelling' market-and that largely got overtaken by slot cars-and then when that died away, by smallish RTF models once again-but on a reduced scale.

But even diesels were produced on a massive scale-ED in the UK produced over 300,000 of their 1cc Bee model-the 2.5cc ED Racer would have had similar production and across the entire ED range production would have been ca 1 million, over the period 1946-1970-ish. Frog (International model aircraft) were producing 1000 engines a week at one stage in the 1950s. DC likewise was a major producer-though production figures are hard to estimate.

In Germany, Han Hornlein produced close to half a million (485,000) Taifun engines for Graupner (this figure does include the two glow models-the total diesel figure is 435,000 examples-these are not small quantities.....and I imagine Webra would have had similar production levels...

ChrisM
'ffkiwi'
Nov 20, 2017, 03:02 AM
Registered User
Thread OP
woohhh!

That before is a very good information!!!!!

maybe the nostalgia is part of the game! as Classical cars! i really love cox engines, but can be hard to handle for FF, that´s why i love diesels... and Cox can be dieselized. i really would like to own a Bamby, but are very hard to find on ebay, and think will go "expensive".
in personal way, i really don´t want a colection of hard to find engines, as i really love build and fly planes, but there are some engines i really want to own!
Nov 20, 2017, 05:37 AM
Registered User
Warren B's Avatar
I wouldn’t recommend a Bambi, except for a glass case. Very difficult starting and not much power when it does.
Try the twin ball race Redfins, really nice little engines.
Nov 20, 2017, 06:34 AM
Alpha Whisky
AlphaWhisky's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warren B
I wouldn’t recommend a Bambi, except for a glass case. Very difficult starting and not much power when it does.
Try the twin ball race Redfins, really nice little engines.
OK - how about this...? In recent months (years) I`ve moved back to the diesel engines I loved as a kid and building the old models around them - typically Vic Smeed and similar style vintage models - albeit with 2 or 3 channel radio assist.

Just today I unearthed a dusty OS 30 Surpass fourstroke from a drawer in the workshop. Wiped it down with kero and put it on the bench-rig in the backyard. I went as far as lubricating the things I could reach and visually checked the glow-plug. It worked fine. That engine fired up in less than 30 seconds and ran like a Swiss watch. I don`t know its background. I don`t have he original box, but all the cap-screws are nice and original, I don`t believe it has ever been dismantled.

I believe this may be a minor collectible item and will intend to shortly list it for sale..

Anybody here interested in a trade ? I`m looking to acquire a nice usable Taifun Hobby diesel somewhere along the line ......

Alan W
Nov 20, 2017, 06:49 AM
Alpha Whisky
AlphaWhisky's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaWhisky
OK - how about this...? In recent months (years) I`ve moved back to the diesel engines I loved as a kid and building the old models around them - typically Vic Smeed and similar style vintage models - albeit with 2 or 3 channel radio assist.

Just today I unearthed a dusty OS 30 Surpass fourstroke from a drawer in the workshop. Wiped it down with kero and put it on the bench-rig in the backyard. I went as far as lubricating the things I could reach and visually checked the glow-plug. It worked fine. That engine fired up in less than 30 seconds and ran like a Swiss watch. I don`t know its background. I don`t have he original box, but all the cap-screws are nice and original, I don`t believe it has ever been dismantled.

I believe this may be a minor collectible item and will intend to shortly list it for sale..

Anybody here interested in a trade ? I`m looking to acquire a nice usable Taifun Hobby diesel somewhere along the line ......

Alan W
I overlooked to attach this ....

Alan W
Nov 20, 2017, 09:10 AM
Edubarca
Edubarca's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ffkiwi
And equally pertinent to the discussion-the 1/2A market was huge-numerically-as well as Cox you had Herkimer (OK) and Wenmac./McCoy (and for a brief period Fox)-all competing in the US-but a significant proportion of that market (especially in the 60s!) was the 'toy' market-the ready to fly/ready to run market -as distinct from the 'modelling' market-and that largely got overtaken by slot cars-and then when that died away, by smallish RTF models once again-but on a reduced scale.

But even diesels were produced on a massive scale-ED in the UK produced over 300,000 of their 1cc Bee model-the 2.5cc ED Racer would have had similar production and across the entire ED range production would have been ca 1 million, over the period 1946-1970-ish. Frog (International model aircraft) were producing 1000 engines a week at one stage in the 1950s. DC likewise was a major producer-though production figures are hard to estimate.

In Germany, Han Hornlein produced close to half a million (485,000) Taifun engines for Graupner (this figure does include the two glow models-the total diesel figure is 435,000 examples-these are not small quantities.....and I imagine Webra would have had similar production levels...

ChrisM
'ffkiwi'
You are absolutely right. I missed other brands mostly because the bigger and most popular one was Cox. Also the best of them all. Herkimer was so-so, WenMac, useless. Perhaps the only other brand with better quality was Holland Hornet which made some .049s and .051 for a brief period. However the so-called "toy market" opened several customers of plastic RTF control line models to real aeromodelling. I myself included.

I had a hobby shop for 30 years in Bogotá and sales of Cox RTFs and engines was always good. I never sold other brands /1/2A) because Cox gave me better quality and excellent prices. Cox was an enormous operation with automated production with a quality never reached by any other IC engine makers, including full size.
Nov 20, 2017, 09:24 AM
I like real wooden aeroplanes!
Sundancer's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Edubarca
...........Cox was an enormous operation with automated production with a quality never reached by any other IC engine makers, including full size.
Agreed on size, but when it comes to "quality never reached by other IC makers" I reckon you would get an argument from plenty of Oliver Tiger users, including me!!
Nov 20, 2017, 09:34 AM
Edubarca
Edubarca's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundancer
Agreed on size, but when it comes to "quality never reached by other IC makers" I reckon you would get an argument from plenty of Oliver Tiger users, including me!!
No doubt but let me see for example, the TeeDee series which were identical engines from .010 through .15 from any other company. I have heard from several experts that this achievement from Cox is unique and just shows how excellent were his products. I still have an .010, several .049s and one TeeDee .09. Also a .051. They are simply amazing!!!


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