Spinoff of F3RES - RC Groups
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Nov 02, 2017, 01:29 PM
God Created me to Create
The_Builder's Avatar
Idea

Spinoff of F3RES


I heard about the F3RES class last month at a DLG contest. I am pretty excited about getting into it and a Chrysalis Lite is on my Christmas list. A thought occurred to me the other day and I wanted to ask if others thought this might work.

So many people are working crazy hours these days and have family stuff going on that fewer and fewer people have time to build a full on "stick kit".

I got to wondering if there would be any interest in using the same launch system and tasks but with composite planes. I am not sure my logic has merit but follow a long if you would and let me know if I am building on sand or stone.

Since we are not talking about full pedal winch launches the planes could be built much lighter which leads to lower cost. we are still talking about RES so electronic costs are lower. If we wanted to keep the costs down we could exclude carbon skinned wings and stick to glass or we put a cap on the retail price tag.

I love the idea of the F3RES class and I will be involved in 2018 but the above idea may grow even faster here in the US. I say that because of the focus on recreation and fun in Europe and the focus on work in the US. I say that with a tone of envy because I am in the US......
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Nov 02, 2017, 02:19 PM
B for Bruce
BMatthews's Avatar
I believe that part of the intent of the class was to combat the rising cost of high tech and high labor costs involved with all composite construction. A new parallel category for ARF composite models would result in a higher cost.

Besides, if folks don't have time to build I see that there are at least a few ARF options that would cut down on the bench time needed. Just need a distributor to bring some of them on to this side of the pond.
Nov 02, 2017, 03:19 PM
God Created me to Create
The_Builder's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by BMatthews
I believe that part of the intent of the class was to combat the rising cost of high tech and high labor costs involved with all composite construction. A new parallel category for ARF composite models would result in a higher cost.

Besides, if folks don't have time to build I see that there are at least a few ARF options that would cut down on the bench time needed. Just need a distributor to bring some of them on to this side of the pond.
I agree 100% with the rising costs and that is why I suggested a cap of some sort. This is the kind of feed back and the kind of vetting this idea needs. If I did not post the idea and get the input from folks like you it would just fester and gnaw at we as I wondered if it had merit.

I do wonder though, given that the HS is only 4KG if the the planes would ever get really expensive. I say that because as much as people like to win or be competitive they normally wont spend money that does not help in that direction. Withe low force being applied there is no reason to go to super high end materials that in turn drive the cost up.

Again, I could be quite mistaken but I do not see where a high end molded plane would have any advantage over a lower cost fiberglass bagged plane. If there is no advantage to the expensive molded plane we may see a emergence of hobby types who build their own planes from scratch. It would actually be less expansive and less time consuming for someone to build a bagged plane than a balsa plane if they do not have any CNC equipment.

I was or am counting on the HS pull force being low and the planes being RES to keep the costs down. There may be many cases where a balsa plane could out perform a composite plane with the rules set up the way they are.

I still agree with you about the intent of the class and the idea of having a lower cost option for people to enjoy competitive RC soaring.
Nov 02, 2017, 04:43 PM
LSF303-AMA Fellow
tkallev's Avatar
I don't believe that you will find many manufacturers out there willing to pony up what it costs to bring a moldie to market in a RES format ... especially a 2M.

Two Meter has been dying off slowly over the past 15 years with only the AMA Nats and some local Michigan club contests offering the format, with a large number of people lobbying to kill it off the Nats schedule since the mid-2000's ...

R&R tried a molded RES plane some 15 years ago ... heavy, expensive, so-so performance ... not exactly a runaway best seller ...
Nov 02, 2017, 04:45 PM
B for Bruce
BMatthews's Avatar
Quote:
....I do wonder though, given that the HS is only 4KG if the the planes would ever get really expensive. I say that because as much as people like to win or be competitive they normally wont spend money that does not help in that direction. Withe low force being applied there is no reason to go to super high end materials that in turn drive the cost up.

Again, I could be quite mistaken but I do not see where a high end molded plane would have any advantage over a lower cost fiberglass bagged plane. If there is no advantage to the expensive molded plane we may see a emergence of hobby types who build their own planes from scratch. It would actually be less expansive and less time consuming for someone to build a bagged plane than a balsa plane if they do not have any CNC equipment......
I'm sorry but your idea of folks not spending lots of money simply does not jive with reality. A few will do whatever it takes and spend whatever it takes to be at the top of the heap. The lack of the pull on the histart just means that they would put that money into the other factors. Namely the full CNC wing molds and other features. Someone would come up with a super thin and super perfected airfoil and cut the molds and end up with a wing that no one can compete with on an even footing.

And in fact a big stated goal of the present F3RES rules is specifically to avoid just this composite molded scenario. Because they WILL do this. The idea is that technology simply can't force it's foot too far in the door with the rules set as they are. And that's the saving grace of the event.

Hell, there's even one "balsa" model where the leading edge sheeting is CNC milled out from thick sheet stock to obtain just the right shape in a wing with compound curves. And as expected it's quite pricey compared to the other offerings. And worst of all from what I read it's got a little bit of an advantage over the other designs. Not a big or clear one. But if two equal ability pilots are in some whiff of fading lift the more expensive "molded" one is going to stay up or come down slower than the other.

Please don't get me wrong. I love your idea. I'm just not sure about how to limit technology to keep the cost approachable. That and the fact that home constructors would need to have the foam core cutting and vacuum bagging setup. That's a lot more intense than what is needed for wood construction. And looking at the cost of composite models out there the cost of the models purchased in an ARF condition is and would be more than what a present F2RES is selling for.

I can only seem to find one ARF that is presently sold out of Europe (Germany?) and that is the RESi. You can see the page for kit and ARF versionshttp://www.modellbau-thiele.de/k003u006s001.htm] HERE[/URL].
The conversion price is a fairly reasonable $260 USD. Now when I compare that to a vacuum bagged ARF model I find that this is pretty reasonable. So clearly the idea works.

Granted with only the one available near as I can tell it might prove to be a bit of a "one design" contest with a lot of RESi's filling out the field. But

I think as the event attracts more followers we'll see a few more ARF models. And because there IS a lot of folks out there that don't have gobs of time for building I think the whole thing will grow even faster. But I also see it staying quite reasonable in cost provided they do keep out the composite side if this one option is anything to go by.
Nov 02, 2017, 04:58 PM
Registered User
There are lots of wood winged ARF's out there, and it's probably only a matter of time until there are lots of ARF F3RES kits. I seem to recall there's at least one obtainable here. Maybe Hyperflight will send one here? Kennedy already has a kit, so maybe they'll have an ARF soon. Expensive, of course.

It's remarkable how few 2 meter RES ARF wood models are available these days. Or, at least, I can't find many. You should keep track of the F3-RES resources sticky. Here's one ARF, though the site is in German:
http://www.modellbau-thiele.de/index...03u006s001.htm

I seriously doubt the hobby can support both F3RES and a spinoff. Not sure if it can support F3RES in the first place.
Nov 02, 2017, 05:08 PM
Red Merle ALES VI
Curtis Suter's Avatar
Here's two that are Made in the USA!

Tarantual Hawk

https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...la-Hawk-2M-RES

Yellow Jacket

https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...2M-Competition

I'm building the electric version of the Yellow Jacket which you can view here. They are similar except, well you guessed it, the motor in the nose.
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...S-Competitions

Curtis
Nov 02, 2017, 05:12 PM
Registered User
I think a lighter, molded version of this design would have an advantage:
http://charlesriverrc.org/articles/a..._allegro2m.htm
A bagged version might not, depending on how well the airfoil was reproduced. The model in the article is designed for a killer winch launch and could be much lighter. For instance, the spar alone weighs almost 4 ounces! At the moment, though, we don't have to worry.

I think someone who was really good with a sanding block might be able to make a balsa wing that was almost as good as a moldie. Or maybe they'd just have to be patient and stubborn:
http://charlesriverrc.org/articles/c...oilshaping.pdf
That's a lot of balsa for a 2 meter, though.
Nov 02, 2017, 05:19 PM
Registered User
John Lueke's Avatar
Just put a hook on a current high end Dlg and you will get a glimpse of where this would end up!
Nov 02, 2017, 06:08 PM
Registered User
It would end up with a longer span than a dlg, and high end dlg's are no longer RES, but you have a point.
Nov 02, 2017, 08:09 PM
supreme being of leisure
ZAGNUT's Avatar
my two favorite rules from F3_RES are the wood only trailing edges and that the composite boom can extend no more forward than the 50% point of the root chord. they sound simple but IMO they are the most significant rules regarding how the model can be built.
Nov 02, 2017, 08:32 PM
B for Bruce
BMatthews's Avatar
Curtis, those are kits though. Builder, despite his username , is suggesting the option of an "buy and fly" situation but using the same rules that opens up the field to composite models.

I think a LOT of the DLG tech would show up in a composite class RES design. Just bigger and no flinger on the tip. The light weights and lack of required high wing strength would support this. It's tailor made for an overgrown DLG with a few other tweaks.

But serious molded DLG's now go for around $550 and up to around $1000. On the other hand that RESi ARF is only around $230 US. So that's a HUGE difference right there. And from where I'm typing a really compelling reason to stick to what is working instead of opening up a further category of lightweight composite models. The prices here being based on what I saw for mid to high DLG's at the Soaring USA website.

I can't find the "F3RES mission statement" at the moment but I'm pretty sure that I recall reading that a main driving concept behind the F3RES category was to specifically hold down the costs by limiting the amount of high tech composites that could be used in the model. Thus the heavy reliance on wood with specific uses for composite items that make the models easier to build and significantly tougher but which everyone can obtain for very reasonable cost.

So while I can see Builder's desire to have more "buy and fly" options out there I don't feel that composite construction is the way. Instead we need to convince a North American distributor to bring in the RESi ARF and perhaps to convince some other makers to produce some ARF versions . In short we should be seeking to expand what is already there and which is a good cheap to enter category.

I don't see this being a Hobby King thing though. I see it more as someone making kits and finding a few good local builders to make some spare cash building those kits to sell as ARF versions. Or do you think I'm wrong and there's a bigger market for this event?

Could this be the one that brings back the low key fun that drew out all those Gentle Lady, Spirit and Gnome owners in years gone by? The very rank and file group that was totally ticked off by the early "glass slippers" that cost the world and made their woody models look like dog poo in the results sheets.
Nov 02, 2017, 08:53 PM
Red Merle ALES VI
Curtis Suter's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by BMatthews
Curtis, those are kits though. Builder, despite his username , is suggesting the option of an "buy and fly" situation but using the same rules that opens up the field to composite models.
Sheesh, I missed the whole point. I think you're right, his name through me for a loop!

Curtis
Nov 03, 2017, 12:06 AM
Registered User
I've been a part of the F3RES since I first saw one of the airplanes in a YouTube video, several years ago. I've always flown 2-meter, just because I could fit the dang things in my car, and when I saw that particular F3RES airplane go around a corn field from a hand toss, I realized that this was something special. I contacted the guy who posted the video, and he said sure: he would make me a kit. Both our lives changed from that e-mail exchange.

Once I realized how far folks had gone in Europe (I believe it actually began in Turkey), I found a copy of the rules people were flying under, and was impressed: it is easy to get points, but very difficult to get all the points. The simple task allows for mistakes, as well as tactics and gamesmanship. Team flying guarantees everybody can get support, and also that no one need be left out, even disabled persons. The F3RES concept is aimed at making RC soaring an inclusive activity, not an exclusive activity.

So what if you have to build your own? $200 for a kit, from the top designer in Europe, right to my door? Sign me up, boys. I love my $1K DLGs, but look at how much more flying (and building) fun I can get for my money.

I've dealt with my share of time-monsters in the past few years: deaths of both parents and dealing with the estate; sister involved in a horrible, maiming accident and her husband (my good friend) stricken with inoperable cancer during her rehabilitation; mother-in-law descending into dementia hell. None of those things prevented me from building. In fact, I found the opposite: an hour at the building board gave me huge relief from the other matters intruding on the lives of me and my wife. A typical F3RES kit takes right about 25-30 hours, compared to a typical DLG which takes me about 8-10. For me, a kit is an investment in sanity and health.

I think The Builder is on to a good thing. The whole point of E3RES is to be inclusive, and get anyone in who wants in.

Yours, Greg
Nov 03, 2017, 12:31 AM
Gots me a good used Hobie Hawk
Steve Corbin's Avatar
The only Rc glider competition that I would participate in would be a one-design contest. Every effort should be made to ensure that every glider fits a template and minimum weight.

A lot of folks won't participate because they know that they can only win by out-spending the competition, and in a one-design contest they'd be forced to see the best pilot, not the wealthiest pilot, take home the trophy.

No time to build a wooden one-design? There will always be folks that will be glad to build it for you, and it still wouldn't be expensive.

And I would have no problem with a one-design contest for some el cheapo Chinese foamie. I just happen to believe that a contest that focuses as much as possible on determining who can fly the best would be a healthy thing for all. Some folks might have to face their inner demons, but that can only build character, something that seems to be getting more scarce nowadays.

I've noticed that when I'm the only pilot out flying I'm the best pilot there. Performance is relative, so what if this one-design isn't the floatiest or speediest glider available, if it's the only glider being flown it's the best glider there.

But it likely ain't gonna happen. I believe that most competitive pilots will work hard to see that it doesn't happen, because they are egoists that, in their perverted view, see it as Ok to take home the trophy even though they know darn well that they weren't the best pilot, they just had better equipment.

How can anyone take pride in winning like that? Now there's contests available that do stress research and development of the gliders more than simple skillful flying. There's something for everyone, except me, until we get a pilot skill only competition. Then I might just give it a go, not to win so much as to make new friends and learn a few things. Keepin' it lite.

The one I would enter would be the one allowing only a three meter glider similar to a Spirit or Oly or Lady, and only a low-tech radio, like a Hitec 3 channel. No telemetry or any aids other than a spotter by your side if you want one and can provide it.

The glider must fit an exacting template and have a minimum weight. One size fits all, may the better pilot win.


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