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Nov 01, 2017, 07:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.zagi5c
I fly normal 3d with a spring and just cut the throttle off at the 50% mark so only the top half works
@mr.zagi5c - yep, that'd be another good option, thanks!
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Nov 01, 2017, 08:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minirotor
I use quite a bit of reflex when inverted and camber mid way through sharp turns and loops... A neat trick for landing an Ahi(and other gliders in a tight spot) is to apply full reflex and full up elevator(takes a bit of practice timeing it right) and most slope foam gliders will almost hover down.
thanks @minirotor - i'll be trying those things in picasim!
Nov 02, 2017, 07:27 AM
Registered User
Thread OP

VIDEOS: ménez hom, vol de pente


hey folks - inspired by @surfimp's historical video, i put together a few searches that will pull up videos of french slope soaring in general and at menez hom. the google search is deeper and was useful b/c it introduced me to the term "vol de pent" which can be used to pull up slope soaring videos all around france. enjoy!

YouTube
Google
(22 min 50 sec)
Nov 03, 2017, 07:39 AM
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Is connecting a proper 4-axis TX setup to PicaSim possible?


@surfimp - i was able to setup my TX with proper 4-axis and snapflap mixing (channels 1-4 are aileron1, aileron2, elevator, rudder, with channel 5 being used internally only to mix aileron1 & 2 for flap movement) but cannot seem to use it directly with PicaSim. i know that PicaSim has it's own flaps-on-throttle feature and various mixing options, but i was hoping to do it all in my TX (i.e. as it would be in the real world) so i can begin dialing in the mixes. my guess is that the underlying PicaSim channel model doesn't actually support independent aileron servos and simulates flaperons by offering them only as a checkbox feature and moving the ailerons as flaps behind the scenes. have you been able to configure PicaSim to follow your TX mixes directly or have you had to use it's internal flaps-on-throttle feature? thanks.
Nov 03, 2017, 07:54 AM
VTPR & Slope Aerobatics
surfimp's Avatar
With all flight sims that I'm familiar with, the mixing happens in the simulator - your Tx is just a source of gamepad inputs (stick and switch positions).

I typically fly sims using a USB-powered controller like a RealFlight Interlink, as I'd rather not run down my transmitter battery. It's not as nice as using your real controller, but for the reason you've discovered above, even when you do use it, it's still not quite the same.

But sims are fantastic practice, and I love 'em. Just treat the sightly different experience as one of the many airplanes in your quiver - the only difference being that these planes are virtual.
Nov 03, 2017, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by surfimp
With all flight sims that I'm familiar with, the mixing happens in the simulator - your Tx is just a source of gamepad inputs (stick and switch positions). I typically fly sims using a USB-powered controller like a RealFlight Interlink, as I'd rather not run down my transmitter battery. It's not as nice as using your real controller, but for the reason you've discovered above, even when you do use it, it's still not quite the same.
sounds good. think i'll split the difference and still use my proper TX, but set it up with the TAER channels that PicaSim expects and do the 4-axis and snapflap mixing in the sim as you suggest. with that at least i get the real TX in my hands and can dial in expo and switches the same as i'll fly in IRL.

Quote:
Originally Posted by surfimp
But sims are fantastic practice, and I love 'em. Just treat the sightly different experience as one of the many airplanes in your quiver - the only difference being that these planes are virtual.
absolutely - and especially with PicaSim. i've use RealFlight a fair amount, but for gliders it just doesn't come close to PicaSim IMO.

BTW - IRL do you fly with snapflap mixing typically, or just manage the elevator/flap mix manually via the throttle?
Last edited by ceyak; Nov 03, 2017 at 09:20 AM.
Nov 03, 2017, 11:26 AM
VTPR & Slope Aerobatics
surfimp's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ceyak
BTW - IRL do you fly with snapflap mixing typically, or just manage the elevator/flap mix manually via the throttle?
I really need to make a video about this. Maybe my son can help me this weekend

To answer your question, I have snapflap mixing turned on at all times.
  • At full elevator deflection, the flaps move a small amount - approximately +/- 5-6mm or so on a ~1.2-1.5m plane
  • "Up" elevator (nose up / positive G) gives camber (trailing edge of the wing drops),
  • "Down" elevator (nose down / negative G) gives reflex (trailing edge of the wing rises).

In addition, I have the dynamic control of the trailing edge on my throttle stick.
  • Center stick (middle of stick travel) is neutral trailing edge.
  • Pushing the stick forward raises the trailing edge,
  • Pulling the stick backwards drops the trailing edge.
  • The dynamic camber has much greater movement than snapflaps, usually the same as maximum aileron deflection

The snapflap mixing is vital for getting the best pitch response for your aerobatic plane. They have the best results on planes that have full span ailerons, or in which the flaps and ailerons can be coupled (via mixing) to provide snapflap deflection, but all planes with aerobatic-focused airfoils will benefit (at least, this has been my experience).

It's important to understand that a little snapflap goes a long way. If you have too much, you'll cause the plane to slow down so much that it may not be able to loop as tightly as without snapflap, and/or it may stall out of the loop partway around.

Snapflaps can also have an influence on some aerobatic figures, especially snaprolls. I learned this early on in my aerobatics career and it's one of the reasons I'm such a fan of dynamic camber on the throttle stick (aka "4 axis"). The link I posted earlier goes into detail explaining my thinking and experience on the subject, and how I use dynamic flaps to both override and augment snapflaps while I fly.

You can see a good example of this in my "Ahi Raw Sticks" video:
Dream-Flight Ahi: Raw Sticks (2 min 22 sec)


Hope it helps,
Steve
Nov 03, 2017, 12:51 PM
Flagstaff, AZ
dawsonh's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ceyak
BTW - IRL do you fly with snapflap mixing typically, or just manage the elevator/flap mix manually via the throttle?
I typically fly with snapflaps “on” and use camber/reflex on the throttle stick as per surfImp... for all the reasons he mentions. A simple snapflap mix greatly improves the efficiency of banked turns and loops... upright and inverted. However, as surfImp noted, snapflap has a negative (or at least a non-positive) effect for stall maneuvers, such as snap rolls.

I suggest that it is useful and informative to sometimes turn off the snapflap mix and get a feel for how your glider flies with (1) no wing camber/reflex and then (2) with manual inputs through the throttle stick only. You can then get a feel for how much camber/reflex you need for a specific maneuver. For example with a semi-symmetrical wing you might need more reflex than camber for an equal sized loop.

Also... I use a curve to set the snapflap amount. I like a small amount of dead space at center elevator and the maximum camber/reflex (six to eight degrees) at about half elevator. The idea being that for small elevator inputs I don’t really need/want to camber/reflex the wing and for the larger, maneuver oriented, elevator inputs I would like to get to the optimal (best lift vs drag) wing camber for both moderate and full elevator input.

You can make this a simple or complicated as you want. Play with camber/reflex. Find out what works for your flying style and aircraft. We are always learning something new... like the Ahi flat spin technique Steve learned in France this summer.

And always... Have Fun!

Dawson
Nov 03, 2017, 01:15 PM
Registered User
Thread OP
thanks @surfimp & @dawsonh - all very informative!
Nov 05, 2017, 09:46 PM
And Repairs
TyFlies's Avatar
Great thread. Intriguing questions and I’m picking up some little pearls of things I didn’t know from the well written answers. And everything from DS to snap flaps.

If you’re ever looking for another good sim with a good selection of gliders and slopers AeroFly 7 is a great one. It costs some bucks though. Can be purchased through Steam. Similar level of graphics as RealFlight, but with gliders that actually fly like gliders.

But having said that, it doesn’t have a little LeFish type acro plane. But... It’s got Torrey Pines and an actual slope in Switzerland : ). Me, I’m still trying to get Picasim to work correctly with my RealFlight Interlink controller - but that’s a question for a different thread.

Good luck with your build and your slope adventure.
Nov 05, 2017, 10:04 PM
IT'S NOSE HEAVY!!!!
cityevader's Avatar
At the grocery recently and in my Ford uniform, the cashier asked if there was "training" that i went through to become the "master technician" that i am...
I said that "classroom training" is the worst possible method of learning; one must actually DO, and DO often.
"Theorerical learning" has one goal, to hopefully reduce "shell shock" upon finally entering the battle...where TRUE LEARNING just then, barely starts to happen...because i believe one cannot learn sex via the internet...nor soaring.

If you never throw a plane off a cliff "for realsies", then you're still a virgin, which the internet still cannot help you with (I think the internet continues to propogate because of folks whom are afraid to attempt propogation themselves, and therefore keep talking about "what-ifs"...)
Nov 05, 2017, 11:46 PM
Registered User
Thread OP
Quote:
Originally Posted by TyFlies
Great thread. Intriguing questions and I’m picking up some little pearls of things I didn’t know from the well written answers. And everything from DS to snap flaps... Good luck with your build and your slope adventure.
thanks @TyFlies - folks here have been so helpful with everything from the most basic knowledge to those many little pearls of deep insight

Quote:
Originally Posted by cityevader
If you never throw a plane off a cliff "for realsies", then you're still a virgin, which the internet still cannot help you with (I think the internet continues to propogate because of folks whom are afraid to attempt propogation themselves, and therefore keep talking about "what-ifs"...)
@citevader - believe me, i am SO looking forward to slope soaring IRL once i get through my build, as well as the winter in these parts! until then though, asking questions and building up some basic knowledge has been a lot of fun, as has putting in stick time to develop basic skills in PicaSim.
Nov 06, 2017, 03:05 AM
VTPR & Slope Aerobatics
surfimp's Avatar
I like sims quite a bit. PicaSim is the best overall in terms of realism (IMO), followed by Aerofly (which is offensively expensive). Real Flight and Phoenix are both pretty meh, with Phoenix having always been nearly unusuable in my experience.

Anyways, back in 2003 I had a bad smoking habit and I finally convinced myself to quit after a long hike in the mountains that left me gasping for breath for hours. I realized that the money I was spending on cigarettes could go to something more healthy... I set out to find that something.

I stumbled across Danny Chapman's "Slope Soaring Simulator" (the forerunner of PicaSim), and remembered the fun I'd had with R/C gliders, planes and cars as a kid. I decided to get back into it, went down to my folks' place and got my old Ninja, and purchased a funny-looking plane called a "Weasel" from some local kid named Michael who'd just started a website the summer before.

The rest is history...

Oh BTW I've never smoked since
Nov 06, 2017, 02:11 PM
Registered User
Thread OP
that's a great story @surfimp - we're lucky you found SSS! and it would seem slope soaring was a good replacement for that handful of smoking's beneficial qualities - calming, meditative, social.
Nov 29, 2017, 09:10 PM
Registered User
Thread OP

balsa, hinges, hot glue - oh my!


hey folks - just an update on my learning & progress here. got some 9g servos, a tiny basic 4ch receiver and some 3/16" balsa and have been experimenting with various aspects of scratch building a dollar-tree foam le fish. i printed out some scaled-down versions of the plans so i can play around with the pieces in proper ratio to the final build.

these first 2 pics are my first pass at a fuselage of 2x sandwiched pieces of foam plus a balsa tail with the conventional elevator option. learned the basics of horn shaping (from credit-card plastic), z-bend linkage and cutting balsa (cut rough and sand to final shape). i really like the balsa option, but think i'll go with a simpler integrated foamboard rudder for my first build.

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next up was experiments with the KFm4 air foil i plan to use. got a technique down that results in a pretty clean profile and i'll probably go with that.

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i was intrigued with the spring hinges andrew newton featured in a few videos and played around with that some. it's a bit fiddly to get the wire gauge & length correct so you end up with a hinge that has enough spring-back but not too much. a neet option, but think i'll go with a conventional tape hinge and push/pull linkage first time around.

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here i am giving a go at a (semi) mad-stab based on a simple hinge rather than the solid rod and sleeve setup. i haven't got the linkage geometry quite right to get closer to a 90 degree throw, but think i should be able to get close(ish). i will have to alter the v-notch for the rudder so it comes closer to the hinge to avoid a giant cut out in the rudder.

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here is a proper mad stab attempt and it seems that getting the geometry of the carbon linkage (meaning the holes drilled to accept the rod) perfectly aligned isn't easy. like i said though - i'm going to go with a simpler tape hinge for this first one.

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i was puzzling a bit about how to build up rigidity for the fuselage, but then came upon a video for scratch-building one of those little "profile" 3D foamies and realized the ingeniousness of that design - getting a rigid structure from two pieces at right angles. here is demo with scraps of how the piece go together before glueing.

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and here is a little version of the fuselage with a rather narrow cross-brace piece. once you run thin glue beads down the 4 intersecting joints, it's pretty amazing how rigid the structure becomes.

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lastly, i came across a clever and successful technique for strengthening the cut foam edges. you run hot glue down the length and then use a squeegee like this to lay down a smooth, flat layer with no overhanging glop. adds very little weight and really beefs up the edges.

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well, that's all for now. would love to hear any thoughts you might have. i'll update again with the next round of experiments. cheers!


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