Recommended first pattern planes? - RC Groups
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Oct 05, 2017, 02:43 PM
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Recommended first pattern planes?


Hi, I'm gradually working my way towards an introduction to pattern, or so I believe. I'm still fairly early on in RC but I've been doing pretty well with an RCM Trainer I built from plans as my first RC model. I'm working on a BTE Venture 60 as a first low-wing tail dragger, and I'll probably do an Ugly Stik. The Stik appeals to me because it's so neutral and I think pattern planes are the way I'd like to go. I'm flying confidently and doing well for the relatively early stage and experience level I'm at, not having any particular problems. I've flown a few other models, and of course a simulators. I'm not expecting any problems with that Venture, if that gives you some idea of the stage of flying I'm currently at. I've only had my solo wings for a few months but I'm well ahead of most people at this stage, mostly because I've been getting in a good amount of practice, usually a couple of days a week and a good long session each time, and still putting in plenty of hours on the sim. I'm very motivated.

I was hoping someone could recommend something I can build from plans as an introduction to pattern. But some questions first - far as I'm aware there are manoeuvres in F3A that are hard to do but the models themselves are not that difficult to fly "normally", such as a circuit, remembering of course that they're neutral and not self-stabilising like a trainer. So would something like a classic Ugly Stik, no dihedral, be a reasonable introduction to this class? Or would I be better off to just skip the Stik and go straight for a real pattern plane?

I thought I might go for one of the "classic" pattern designs but I don't know if there are reasons to favour or avoid any particular one. For example, I've been watching a very nice build of a classic Dirty Birdy kit, https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...60-Build/page8, but that's an old design and everything in RC has come a long way since then. Are newer pattern ships going to be better for me? Or worse? By the way for various reasons, the only really practical option for me is to build up a traditional wood construction from plans, I won't be able to budget any of the better ARF's, and for preference I'd rather build my own. I've probably got most of the materials for a "woody", such as stocks of different a/c ply and plenty of balsa, even some spruce spars, all the glues, fibreglass etc. and I can buy all the hardware in stages from my limited income as I progress, like I'm doing with the V60.

I've got Saito FA-56 and FA-82B engines and a YS FZ91 AC which I got NIB and still has never been run. The 56 is currently in my trainer, presently my own only working model I can use. The 82's allocated for the Venture 60, and I don't really want to have to swap engines in and out of the planes I fly regularly so I think the YS is the choice for my next full project. I nearly had a chance to get a Saito boxer twin FA-182TD recently and if I get a good run of work, I probably still will, I've heard of these for larger pattern ships (I think they turn up in 2M class?). I have a Hitec Aurora 9X which I love, with Optima 9 Rx and some different Hitec servos, i'll get what I need for the next projects as I can. It seems to me that the YS and this radio system would be a nice set of equipment in the right pattern plane, but I'd need some advice to make that choice. I like what I see on this page, and I'd love to order one of these kits but I've explained the problem. From the Eureka page I like the look of the Lightning F3A, Curare, Blue Angel and the like. I consider myself up to building these, in traditional fashion (ie. not with foam core wings for now, but I'd definitely consider a new foam wing as a later project).

So would anyone advise me *against* models like that? There are several of these types as free plans downloads on Outerzone, and that's how I'd go. I've done that before and I'm comfortable with it, but I might need some guidance choosing a design. If anyone can help me towards a good choice and away from a poor one I'd be grateful. Thanks in advance.
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Oct 05, 2017, 10:51 PM
Hope to get out of life alive
kenh3497's Avatar
FWIW.... i was looking at some of the World Models planes. I think one of them speced aYS91. Here is a link to their pattern planes.

https://www.theworldmodels.com/store...ge_2=&types=in

Ken
Oct 06, 2017, 02:04 AM
What could possibly go wrong?
Quote:
Originally Posted by kenh3497
FWIW.... i was looking at some of the World Models planes. I think one of them speced aYS91. Here is a link to their pattern planes.

https://www.theworldmodels.com/store...ge_2=&types=in

Ken
Thanks Ken, just trying to check that link but I'm having trouble getting through to it. Could that have been for a YS 91 2-stroke, or is it possibly quite an old advert, because the FZ91 I've got is the old 4-stroke 91 that's been out of production for 12 or more years I believe. I was really happy to get this one new-in-box, never run, still in the plastic (new-old stock), I'd been aware of it at one of the local hobby stores for some time then at some point the price got reduced again to something I could handle so I put a deposit on it and paid it off. It was a great find and I think it's a bargain in mint condition, as I know it's regarded as a bit of a classic engine.

Anyway... for the time being I'm substituing some 3D models in my simulator (ClearView RC which I think is great and highly under-rated for the price), haven't found a "real" pattern plane compatible with it yet. I'm dialing down the massive control throws and I'll try moving the CG further forward and see what we get, it might be possible to get something useful that way. Also been substituting a "Twin Stik" (Ugly Stik with 2x glow motors), that's a lot of fun, and what appears to be the old RCM / Bridi Sportster. There may be others I can use if I keep searching through the many downloaded sim models for it that I've never tried out.

There are many plans to download from Outerzone, all the classic pattern models are there and some modern types, I think there are even some up-to-date 2M class designs there too (not the Insight V4 or anything really expensve but certainly some good ones). I've been looking at the Curare, that's certainly the right type of plane and probably about right for the engine(s) I could use, maybe I'd have to scale it a little but that's easy. I'm just not sure if it's really a good choice... I wonder if the Curare has any bad habits that could catch out someone who's still getting used to it. Not that I really mind, but I'd like to find the best choice out of what's available.

How about this... I'll go through all the suitable plans I think might be worth considering, make a list and see what people think of them, does that sound like a better bet? I know it's hard to answer when someone chimes in with "what plane should I get?" but I'll take any advice I can get
Oct 06, 2017, 02:54 AM
Registered User
Rudix's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by BernardW
Thanks Ken, just trying to check that link but I'm having trouble getting through to it. Could that have been for a YS 91 2-stroke, or is it possibly quite an old advert, because the FZ91 I've got is the old 4-stroke 91 that's been out of production for 12 or more years I believe. I was really happy to get this one new-in-box, never run, still in the plastic (new-old stock), I'd been aware of it at one of the local hobby stores for some time then at some point the price got reduced again to something I could handle so I put a deposit on it and paid it off. It was a great find and I think it's a bargain in mint condition, as I know it's regarded as a bit of a classic engine.

Anyway... for the time being I'm substituing some 3D models in my simulator (ClearView RC which I think is great and highly under-rated for the price), haven't found a "real" pattern plane compatible with it yet. I'm dialing down the massive control throws and I'll try moving the CG further forward and see what we get, it might be possible to get something useful that way. Also been substituting a "Twin Stik" (Ugly Stik with 2x glow motors), that's a lot of fun, and what appears to be the old RCM / Bridi Sportster. There may be others I can use if I keep searching through the many downloaded sim models for it that I've never tried out.

There are many plans to download from Outerzone, all the classic pattern models are there and some modern types, I think there are even some up-to-date 2M class designs there too (not the Insight V4 or anything really expensve but certainly some good ones). I've been looking at the Curare, that's certainly the right type of plane and probably about right for the engine(s) I could use, maybe I'd have to scale it a little but that's easy. I'm just not sure if it's really a good choice... I wonder if the Curare has any bad habits that could catch out someone who's still getting used to it. Not that I really mind, but I'd like to find the best choice out of what's available.

How about this... I'll go through all the suitable plans I think might be worth considering, make a list and see what people think of them, does that sound like a better bet? I know it's hard to answer when someone chimes in with "what plane should I get?" but I'll take any advice I can get
Hi Bernard and welcome to the world of pattern!

First a note on the Curare. I flew one, competitively way back when they were in fashion. It is a great plane with no bad habits. Having said that, since those days pattern has changed a lot with the introduction of "Aresti/turn around" pattern. The older planes were designed to scream from horizon to horizon and there were no judged turn around maneuvers or a requirement to stay in the box the whole time. For the modern pattern schedules a slower, and larger plane might be more suited. I think in many ways the modern pattern planes are easier to fly than the old ones.

Initially you do not need a full 2 x 2m plane, the smaller sizes can teach you the basics and can be used in competition. Smaller would also be more suitable for the engine you have.

The Curare will still be fun but if you are considering pattern seriously it might not be the best option.

On the simulator side, I think if you change a 3D plane like you suggested it would be close. For general practice I use a Sebart Sukoi S29 setup for pattern and it is a great "keep in the car" practice plane. It would also be quite competitive in the lower classes so as a model in the simulator it will teach you a lot.

Have fun!
Rudi
Oct 06, 2017, 04:23 AM
What could possibly go wrong?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudix
Hi Bernard and welcome to the world of pattern!

First a note on the Curare. I flew one, competitively way back when they were in fashion. It is a great plane with no bad habits. Having said that, since those days pattern has changed a lot with the introduction of "Aresti/turn around" pattern. The older planes were designed to scream from horizon to horizon and there were no judged turn around maneuvers or a requirement to stay in the box the whole time. For the modern pattern schedules a slower, and larger plane might be more suited. I think in many ways the modern pattern planes are easier to fly than the old ones.

Initially you do not need a full 2 x 2m plane, the smaller sizes can teach you the basics and can be used in competition. Smaller would also be more suitable for the engine you have.

The Curare will still be fun but if you are considering pattern seriously it might not be the best option.

On the simulator side, I think if you change a 3D plane like you suggested it would be close. For general practice I use a Sebart Sukoi S29 setup for pattern and it is a great "keep in the car" practice plane. It would also be quite competitive in the lower classes so as a model in the simulator it will teach you a lot.

Have fun!
Rudi
Hi Rudi and thanks for the good advice, I'm glad to hear it. Looks like pattern could be a good choice! Thanks for the opinions on the Curare, I think I was just interested because at last I'd found plans for something I'd heard of and knew that it'd been competitive at one stage, but I hadn't considered (or known!) the changes to the schedule since those days. So if it all has to happen in the box now then it makes sense that the designs will be different, and very high speed is not needed so much.

I guess just about everyone starts out in Sportsman class, of course, and I haven't seen a competition in it locally but I've seen them reported, and there are all kinds of models getting used for that, even my Venture 60 would be a reasonable starting point. People are still entering Ugly Stiks, and actually I'd almost settled on one of those for the YS before I was clear on pattern in itself as a direction for me.That said, a "real" pattern plane is still probably the way to go. I'm not sure how I'll know the difference between the screaming 80's style designs, and something suited to the changes you mentioned. I still don't know enough about it to fully appreciate the difference those new rules make to the designs, but if I can find something suited to the newer style, I'll go for it.

What I'm *not* going to do is obsess about removing every last gram, and spend a fortune on exotic materials. I think stage one would be to build the model very traditionally, wood framed wing and so on, and then for stage two get some foam wing cores cut for it and learn about working with those. As I'll be going for *learning* pattern more than winning it to begin with, I don't need something so light it's going to fold up on me... I heard the pattern expression "if you haven't folded a wing you're building too heavy", and that might be true at high level, but not yet for me.

So I guess it's clearer what type of plane I need, it's just a matter of finding it. The more I think about it, the more I think a basic Ugly Stik (or Ultra Stik) is still a good choice for my engine and radio, and what I'm trying to do. Before I started thinking of Pattern I'd already just about decided that was the way to go, I'm just investigating alternatives before I do. Or should I make some specific mod's to it, to bring it closer to pattern style, such as a large tailplane, fin and rudder and a longer tail boom (from wing TE to stab. LE). Maybe make sure the wing and tailplane centre lines and thrust line are all the same (I *think* that's the characteristic of most F3A specialists), I'm happy to "bash" the design until it may not look much like the original... how about a Stik with a swept LE, fin and tail-plane, and with retracts? It doesn't have to all be done at once, if I'm smart I could design it to be altered as I go. I've been interested in altering designs for a while.

Meanwhile, for Sportsman even my Venture 60 will be a reasonable starting point. It'll have the basic abilities to get me going, such as knife-edge, strong vertical climb (not unlimited, but healthy) and a reputation as a sweet flyer. I tood the advice of many V60 pilots and clipped one rib bay off each wing panel, for less float on landing and a faster roll-rate. It's going to have good servos and engine and should be a good starting point. My first model was an RCM Trainer 60 and I added to the span instead, so it's gone from about 58" to 64" and the Venture will be 66. The classic Stik is about the same, well at least I know the wings all fit in the same car the trainer wing does I've got 3 engines, that way each one would be dedicated to its own model and I'd have a pretty good stable to fly, for a person in my position.

Thanks again for the help Rudi, that's really good, just what I needed. I'll keep investgating and checking in with what I learn.
Oct 06, 2017, 05:47 AM
Registered User
Rudix's Avatar
I am sure your Venture 60 would be a great start Bernard! My first "pattern" plane was a Quicky 500, a 40 sized pylon racer and it served me well till I could get a better plane in the air (was still at school).

Yes, even a stick would work, if you build something getting it straight and getting the balance in the right place is far more important that saving weight or having the latest design. There is nothing worse than fighting the plane all the time, if it is setup correctly and straight it becomes a lot easier.

Once you have a plane, the important bit is to practice as much as possible, not just go and fly the plane, go with a plan to practice a specific maneuver and stick to the plan. Practice flying your line and correcting for wind drift. Soon it will become natural and everything will start flowing.

Lots of fun, in the beginning it is more important to fly against yourself, improving all the time, no need to try and beat anyone other than yourself, later you can start working on beating the other guys in your class.

That reminds me, need to go and charge batteries, time for a few practice flight!
Rudi
Oct 06, 2017, 06:02 PM
Hope to get out of life alive
kenh3497's Avatar
I forgot I picked up what I think is this plane http://www.bridiairplanes.com/hangar/killerchaos60.html I have a Satio 91 on it and that is more than enough power. HUGE loops are possible. Mine is built as a tail dragger so I had to bend up some longer landing gear to give the Saito with a 14" prop enough clearance.

If you want to scratch build I have CAD drawing of several modern pattern planes. I scaled a copy of a Black Magic down to size to fit my 91AC. Here is a link to a build thread if you want to have a look. http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/rc-p...ld-thread.html The Black Magic can be built either as electric or glow. The only difference is the firewall. If you want a copy of the plans pm your email and I'll send them over.

Ken

The build thread was not mine but the full size version. Sorry if I confused you
Last edited by kenh3497; Oct 07, 2017 at 03:33 PM.
Oct 07, 2017, 07:24 AM
What could possibly go wrong?
Thanks Ken, I'll take you up on that, I'm just about to go out for a while but I'll be in touch when I get back. Thanks!
Oct 07, 2017, 09:16 PM
Registered User
Hi -

I think that I would continue on with the Venture as an intermediate step; you can use it to learn some of the basics. As with older designs, it has a huge wing because the engines of the time were not as strong as the current ones. I would consider shortening the wing by 1 bay on each side. Also, I would avoid using nyrods for the elevator and rudder. Put the elevator servo in the tail and the rudder servo in the fuse; for the rudder use cables. Also, I would build the wing to have two airlerons servos rather than a single one. That design has a fairly small rudder, I would consider making it bigger and changing the hinge line so that it is straight up and down rather than raked towards the rear.

My suggestion is to go with an ARF for the next plane. Building a straight airplane is not easy and for the most part, ARFs are now pretty decent. Spend the time flying rather than building. The Kaos 60 is pretty decent and it could get you through intermediate and it is relatively cheap. My only suggestion would be to mount the gear on the fuse and convert it over into a tail dragger. If you want to spend a little more, there are several IMAC type ARFs which could take a .90 sized engine. Properly set up the can fly the lower pattern sequences.

Now, regarding weight. It matters a lot. You do not have to spend an arm and a leg, but simple things like using a Life receiver pack rather than Nihm can save some weight. A tail dragger instead of a trike will also save weight. Lighter wheels also help. Also, build simple and do not add things that are not truly essential for flight. For a stall turn, the engine will have to carry the weight of the plane, so saving weight is akin to gaining thrust....

Good luck,

Teo
Oct 09, 2017, 09:35 PM
Hope to get out of life alive
kenh3497's Avatar
Bernard, you have an email.

Ken
Oct 09, 2017, 09:41 PM
Hope to get out of life alive
kenh3497's Avatar
Boxer series. Looks simple and seems to have a good reputation with several sizes to pick from.

https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...-pattern-plane

Ken
Oct 11, 2017, 01:23 PM
Registered User
A friend and real solid pilot Mark Hunt designed some neat stuff that can be seen here.

http://www.insightrc.com/

Several free plans and good kits.
Nov 26, 2017, 12:33 AM
Registered User
I am only a flyer who likes to try doing pattern. That said, I have had The Commander from The World Models for years. It is my very best "go where you point it" plane.
Nov 26, 2017, 01:32 AM
What could possibly go wrong?
Thanks everyone for these great tips, much appreciated. I'm working on finishing off my 2nd RC model, a BTE Venture 60, low-winged sports type with tail wheel, and by all accounts a sweet flyer. Though being a dihedral wing I would think it's not ideal for pattern, even Sportsman. I don't want to say anything negative about this kit, I think it's fantastic and meets its goals almost perfectly, but it's just not designed for pattern. But for a 2nd model, it'll be a good choice, as something to move on to now I've graduated from my trainer (RCM Trainer 60, home built from plans). Saito FA-82B, Hitec Aurora 9X Tx, Optima 9 Rx, "mighty mini" Hitec 5245MG aileron servos x2 and 5485HB for elevator, rudder and throttle (I might yet get a cheap micro or mini servo for throttle). I recently got Hitec telemetry gear. I've read that the best way to use it is to use it in a new model until you're familiar with what numbers you expect to get from it, then remove and use it for the next model. That sounds like just what I need from it. Most important feature will be GPS though I'd like a proper air-speed instrument too.

Next model is probably going to be an Ugly Stik, very close to the original Kraft design at least in dimensions. I'll build it with a flat wing ie. no dihedral, and I'm still deciding whether I want to bother with the round, WW1-looking tail fin. Never really been keen on that but it's not a big deal. Engine will be a YS FZ91 AC which I was lucky to get unsold, new-old stock and out of production at least 12 years. This one's never been run, it was still in the original plastic. I know YS updated this design to a larger capacity but based on the same mechanicals, and some people say it's a classic engine, one of their favourites.

That for me will be my real "pattern trainer", which I'll use to start polishing up my flying and I might even enter some Sportsman-level competitions, if and when I feel ready (actually I've picked up RC flying relatively quickly and feeling confident, I'm sure I'll be fine).

But after that if I'm still keen to continue in patter, I'll want a "real" pattern design. I'd be looking at some of the larger designs, I have no idea if I'd go for the 2m class. I'd seen the Insight page before, obviously those guys really know what they're doing! Always a pleasure to see the experts and professionals doing what they do so well. The Boxer is also very interesting and I will look into it. Thanks!

The engine I'd really like to own, whether for pattern or not, is the Saito FA-182TD flat twin-cylinder glow 4-stroke. Probably modified for spark ignition, still running methanol. I've seen at least a few reports of people competing with this engine as it does have a reputation for power, and for its class it's not outrageously expensive. So long as work keeps up like it's looking so far this season, I'll be able to get one hopefully by mid next year. Then it's just a question of a model to put it in! Of course I want to use it in other stuff, but if it's really a good choice for larger pattern models then that makes it even more worth having.

Thanks again for the input, I'm always keen to hear what people are using. Please feel free to post your own models, ideas or experiences
Nov 26, 2017, 02:21 PM
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kc8qpu's Avatar
Seems like to many airplanes! At least for what would be my take. I sure rated out three years ago with a E-Flite Splendor. It was Foam. Just over 50 inch wing spam and ran on 6s. For classes through at least intermediate itís not really about the airframe. That I proved for myself by flying that splendor up into the intermediate class. And in fact did very good with it. After a while I was placing higher than a lot of guys with 2 meter planes.

Again not about the airframe but your skills and completely knowing the aircraft and how it will react in situations. So with one or maybe be two planes fly it enough and you will start to actually feel things in flight. Or it will feel like it.


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