Go fly prize - RC Groups
Shop our Airplanes Products Drone Products Sales
Thread Tools
Sep 30, 2017, 09:56 AM
Registered User
Discussion

Go fly prize


http://goflyprize.com/

Who wants to build an ornithopter that can carry a human and win the prize?
Sign up now
to remove ads between posts
Sep 30, 2017, 10:07 AM
Registered User
Safe, quiet, ultra-compact, near-VTOL capable of flying twenty miles while carrying a single person.
Sep 30, 2017, 11:05 AM
Registered User
That's effectively a jetpack/multirotor competition... max linear dimension 8.5ft. Human wingspan will likely be about 4x height of the person. Bird-like wings could fit into that constraint when folded up for walking around, but the rules say the size is measured at the largest in-flight configuration.

Electric flapping wings would be way off the chart on quietness though, so you could at least take the $250K prize for that.

But at the rate I work, I'll be lucky to even have my small scale bird-winged RC plane done by the competition deadline, much less any significant progress toward scaling to human size.
Oct 01, 2017, 12:03 AM
Registered User
I'm sure even the main sponsor is anable to design and build an practical fliyng machine which meet all the requirements .
Many just will lose their 250 or 500 $$$
This probably is some new type of scam
The contest will be won ( if this not a scam) by some technical curio which never will be seen in practical everyday use!
The Henry Ford’s Innovation Nation | S2 Ep35 | Omni Hoverboard (3 min 15 sec)
Oct 01, 2017, 03:12 PM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by dekutree64
That's effectively a jetpack/multirotor competition... max linear dimension 8.5ft. Human wingspan will likely be about 4x height of the person. Bird-like wings could fit into that constraint when folded up for walking around, but the rules say the size is measured at the largest in-flight configuration.

Electric flapping wings would be way off the chart on quietness though, so you could at least take the $250K prize for that.

But at the rate I work, I'll be lucky to even have my small scale bird-winged RC plane done by the competition deadline, much less any significant progress toward scaling to human size.
I didn't realized there was a max size limit.
Those are great observations, I'm wondering what you think are the advantages of an ornithopter over a multicopter as a personal flying device?
Oct 01, 2017, 04:24 PM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by tartavull
I didn't realized there was a max size limit.
Those are great observations, I'm wondering what you think are the advantages of an ornithopter over a multicopter as a personal flying device?
Ornithopters are much more efficient , virtually stelt silent and much safer than multicopters . Multicopters beat everything else in the moment in mean of controllability but this is just because the large amount of people working for their progress.Also they are more compact so they can meet the competition requirements but since they are dangerous, noisy and energy inefficient they never will be accepted as a human transporting vehicle.
The ornithopters has a lot of potential but to the moment we menaged to use probably only 10-20% of it.
Watch the birds and insects in order to extrapolate future ornithopters' flight
EHANG 184 Flight Test in Dubai 2017. (1 min 59 sec)

The single rotor Mosquito heli is much more energy efficient than Ehang for example
*For Sale* Mosquito XET Turbine Helicopter Walkaround and Flight (11 min 16 sec)

The ornithopters has potential to reach efficiency as high as the efficiency of huge single blade proppeler which can be over 90%.
1 Single Rotor Blade helicopter experiment, Horizon Hobby Blade 400. (7 min 43 sec)

Today , the fast advance in the solar cells, electric motors and batteries allow as to build fully solar powered planes which makes meaningless the superior overal efficiency of ornithopters since the solar energy is free.
SUNSEEKER DUO first powered flights (3 min 50 sec)

Here some attempts to solve the efficiency problems by hybridization
Uber Invests in Plans for Electric VTOL Air Taxi Network – AINtv (3 min 8 sec)

Flying taxi: Electric flying taxi makes first test flight, might be in service by 2025 - TomoNews (7 min 39 sec)

Single blade prop example
1 Single Rotor Blade helicopter experiment, Horizon Hobby Blade 400. (7 min 43 sec)
Last edited by ZTEX; Oct 01, 2017 at 06:16 PM.
Oct 01, 2017, 06:35 PM
Registered User
Not sure if it can be put in 2.59m sphere but if converted to electric it can be an prize winning candidate against multicopters
Guinness Record Smallest Helicopter GEN-H4 (Pt.1) (1 min 34 sec)
Last edited by ZTEX; Oct 01, 2017 at 06:57 PM.
Oct 01, 2017, 06:48 PM
Registered User
Also Coanda effect soucer can be an candidate, just not sure if such one with 2.59m diameter will be abble to lift a human .
Aesir Coanda-effect VTOL UAV (1 min 45 sec)
Last edited by ZTEX; Oct 01, 2017 at 07:03 PM.
Oct 02, 2017, 12:20 AM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZTEX
Quote:
Originally Posted by tartavull
I didn't realized there was a max size limit.
Those are great observations, I'm wondering what you think are the advantages of an ornithopter over a multicopter as a personal flying device?
Ornithopters are much more efficient , virtually stelt silent and much safer than multicopters . Multicopters beat everything else in the moment in mean of controllability but this is just because the large amount of people working for their progress.Also they are more compact so they can meet the competition requirements but since they are dangerous, noisy and energy inefficient they never will be accepted as a human transporting vehicle.
The ornithopters has a lot of potential but to the moment we menaged to use probably only 10-20% of it.
Watch the birds and insects in order to extrapolate future ornithopters' flight
Yep, multirotors need maybe 150W/kg, so with 200 pound (91kg) pilot as per the competition rules, that's 13-14kW just to hover the pilot. But with lithium batteries, the weight of the craft will probably at least double that to get enough capacity for the half hour endurance+6 mile journey requirement. Even when batteries with double the energy density are available, flight time will still be limited if you want to keep the total weight low.

I linked some articles in this thread which have measured 9-23w/kg for cruising flight in live birds, so somewhere on the order of 10x more efficient. Obviously winged humans won't be quite as well optimized as birds, but still a lot of potential there, especially since wings allow taking advantage of thermals and such as well. Takeoff and landing will be more restrictive though. Probably comparable to paramotor. It may eventually be possible to do near-vertical takeoff with flapping wings, but the torque requirement is enormous, and it would be pretty disorienting since humans don't have that awesome auto-stabilizing neck that birds have

Paramotors are the best thing available for bird-like flight experience right now. Just not very practical since they're so sensitive to weather conditions. Powered hang gliders are more stable, but not as portable. My hope for flapping wings is that it will be possible to fold them up and wear them around all the time, rather than needing to be parked like a typical vehicle. But I'm not sure it will work. Keeping the whole thing under 35kg or so is a tall order, even with carbon fiber, neodymium magnets, and better-than-lithium batteries. And birds walk around with their wings and tail sticking way behind them, which would be very inconvenient indoors. So ideally you'd want to keep the wing chord (ornithology measurement, not aeronautical term) about equal to your height so you can stand up straight with wings folded. But that might limit wingspan too much. And you may need a tail for pitch stability, but I don't know how to control it during takeoff/landing, or get it to fold up conveniently.

For now, my goal is to advance the state of the art in articulated/flapping wing design, working at small size but with scalability in mind. Birds are like a cheat sheet for this Hard to believe that evolution can engineer something so brilliantly. My approach is to simply copy their design as closely as I can.
Last edited by dekutree64; Oct 02, 2017 at 01:06 AM.
Oct 02, 2017, 06:41 PM
Registered User
Thank you both.

Those are great observations and intuitions.
The potential energy saving of a ornithopter are tempting.

The plan of building something smaller to then scale it up it's logical.

I agree that it's a huge challenge to control wings for maneuvers like take of and landing. I think a possible approach is to take ideas from the robotics community, as combining trajectory planning with supervised or renforcement learning. As in this video:
Interactive Control of Diverse Complex Characters with Neural Networks (4 min 31 sec)


I been thinking about this for a few weeks, so I'll be happy to expand in more technical detail.
Oct 03, 2017, 02:50 PM
Registered User
Will be interesting to see what your idea is?
And yes , robotics methods can be very useful for ornithopters progress.
Here what been done many years ago since seem you are interested in controll strategies
http://fy.chalmers.se/~wolff/AWNGecco2002.pdf
Oct 03, 2017, 03:07 PM
Registered User
The perfect candidate for the prize wining which will meet easyaly all requirements
Unfortunately Victor Schauberger bring his secrets with himselves
http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/repulsin.htm
Oct 03, 2017, 04:43 PM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZTEX
The perfect candidate for the prize wining which will meet easyaly all requirements
Unfortunately Victor Schauberger bring his secrets with himselves
http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/repulsin.htm
Haha, I do have some interest in flying saucers as well. But I don't think you could lift a human with 8.5 foot diameter. My theory is that they use ion wind to propel air outward from the top center and inward from the edge to bottom center, to create a small pressure difference over the large surface area. But high voltage stuff is such a pain to build, because the metal parts all have to be smoothly curved and highly polished or it just sprays corona everywhere.
Oct 03, 2017, 10:22 PM
Registered User
The Repulsine use tornadoes principes to power itself . Once started create low gradient of temperature and suck energy from higher temperature gradient ambient air this called implosion Príncipe. This opposite to any other heat engine which use explosion Príncipe.
here is an example for implosion powering so called "flame sucker" engines.
Flame Gulping Engine (2 min 1 sec)

They are powered not by expanding of the working fluid but by it contraction when the fluid is cooled .
Oct 03, 2017, 11:07 PM
Registered User
Repulsine explained http://evg-ars.narod.ru/shauberg1.htm
Last edited by ZTEX; Oct 07, 2017 at 12:25 AM.


Quick Reply
Message:

Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Category Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Contest Fun Fly Contest $$ Prizes OKC, OK Majortomski Free Flight 1 Nov 22, 2016 06:06 PM
Discussion BBQ and maybe win raffle prizes. Even if you don't fly, come join us. RCAmy FPV Racing 0 Jun 08, 2016 02:46 AM
Discussion Going to Electri-Fly Chino Valley, AZ Oct 16-18, 2015 bruff Arizona Model Aviators 9 Oct 07, 2015 12:39 PM
Discussion Help Us Pick A Great Raffle Prize For A Fun Fly Please. Need Your Help To Decide Murocflyer RC Flight Events 16 Mar 01, 2013 11:29 PM
Discussion Why the Nobel Peace Prize Should Go to Nuclear Weapons Dave K Life, The Universe, and Politics 34 Oct 12, 2009 09:18 PM