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Oct 19, 2019, 05:09 PM
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thorsail's Avatar

Schooners ?


sheesh, this club pulls me in many directions these days !
.
So TBarJohn and Kensailfast and I are members of the Chicago club. MANY years ago John said do I want an old orphan EC-12 hull he had, "we" can make a schooner out of it. OK I said.
Fast forward to today, it was pretty warm here,I put up a tarp as a windbreak and hit the hull with this copper rustoleum I had. Looks like this winters project will be my schooner "Anna" .
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I will try and get the topsides painted black before it gets too cold to work outside, then work on rigging her .
Right now I have to decide on how to do the rig-I have this image (attached) that John figured out , but I'm not sure , I might go with a marconi main instead of the gaff main rig...the marconi takes off around 200 sq. in. of sail area, which I could make up for with a fore topsail and an outer jib. any thoughts ?
Will try and do updates here as I progress with this build.
Allan
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Oct 20, 2019, 04:41 PM
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thorsail's Avatar

Schooner Anna painting update


well, that was pretty easy...another warm enough day here in Chicago, forecast isn't so good for this week, so lets paint !
one less excuse to not work on this project.
Allan
Oct 21, 2019, 01:58 PM
Modeler/ Historian
Stephen Vick's Avatar
Thread OP
Using an EC 12 hull for a schooner? I like it! Great Idea, cant wait to see how she turns out.
Oct 21, 2019, 02:30 PM
Big Boats Rule!
boater_dave's Avatar
Hey! Don't leave me out of the EC-12 to schooner conversion. I have two hulls set aside for converting. One for two masts, one for three! I am waiting to see how well the rig conversion goes from planning to sailing.


Dave
Oct 21, 2019, 06:45 PM
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thorsail's Avatar

Schooner Anna


Hi Dave !
well, here I am--I know we talked about this years ago--guess it's time to put up or shut up for me about this build !
Tons of decisions to make, starting with what depth of detail to go into , something not considered in all the racing boats I've worked on.
1) the rig has to go off and on, so how to rig it while trying to fake it/make it looking " traditional " .
2)Spars : home center dowel rods, but what diameters? short list:
Bow spirit/inner jib boom/fore mast/fore topmast/fore mast boom/fore mast gaff/main mast/main topmast/main boom.
3)Spar location:when my buddy John first scaled this he said fore mast 19" aft, main mast 33" aft. so that's what I drew on my plans.
4) sail controls : had an old probar arm winch I was going to use, but I see how the Bearospace guy rigged his Annie with a drum -similar size hull/sailplan-works for him !
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the amount of detail on these boats goes from what I am able to do to museum quality. got to find my comfort zone . plus you can always ADD more bling ! first it has to sail ! onward............
Allan
Oct 22, 2019, 01:52 PM
Big Boats Rule!
boater_dave's Avatar
Functional first, then worry about the minutia. But for spar construction, either spruce for light and strong, or cherry, 'cause it's pretty. I have a bundle of cherry I have been saving for just this sort of thing. But if spruce is desired, Kettle Moraine Hardwoods is not far from my house and they have a nice selection of semi-exotic stuff. The process is to use a table saw to get 8 sided blanks, than an evening or two with a spoke shave. Then another with some sandpaper.

Getting the mast placement is what always worried me. It's almost like you need to build an undetailed, functional prototype, then complete the details later. Even if that means using a test rig with simple construction that will get replaced with better woods, rigging, fittings, etc.

There were a few threads here on RCG on fittings, with some really great suggestions for scale like stuff. Gammon Iron and Stephen Vick have great threads on this. Period looking deadeyes, but removable for transport. A more modern clevis and tang would be pretty simple, too.

I even have a pretty good supply of Dacron from an old Flying Junior sail set (with spinnaker!) if we wanted to make out own sails with that sort of vintage look.

For sail control, I could go with either an old bang/bang setup, or with a newer proportional setup from Servo City, or even gang up the standard drum servo (one for each sail). I have multiple examples of each on the shelf. There is also an industrial servo device that is a cross between a nice Servo City unit, and a home made bang/bang gearbox. Big, somewhat heavy, but powerful and half the price.

Marlin P Jones industrial servo...
https://www.mpja.com/High-Torque-DC-...info/34108+MD/


Dave
Oct 22, 2019, 04:39 PM
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thorsail's Avatar

Boater Dave "rebuttal"


OK , lets get more specific
MASTS :
Material-I got a place too, I could get a spruce blank 5/8" X 3/4" X 48" for $7.56. AircraftSpruce dot com has spruce from 1/8" to 1" thick and 3/16'' to 2.5" wide all sold by the foot. for what this boat is I think dowels are fine. mast placement-I'm gonna trust the guy that helped me with the sailplan. there is a formula for figuring out the center of effort of a rig vs the center of lateral resistance of a hull. but that's math-I don't do math.
FITTINGS :
I got a bunch of these really small turnbuckles--toying with the idea of having the rigging at deck level fixed,( fake deadeyes or some such) then the port and strbd. sets attach to the mast where I can tension them with the screw fitting. only a thought.
SAILS:
bought some polyester material from a JoAnnes- it's a deep red color so it should look like "tanbark" sails when done.
SAIL CONTROL:
I got the same collection of old winches as you--BUT when I saw how simple Gary Webbs set up was,I was impressed. and I'm not a "drum" guy either, but what he did works, so...
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here's today's wacky pics from AllanMarine-years ago my mentor John and I took the boards, 1/8" thick X 4.5" wide X 5' long and put these 3/8" wide grooves in them-for the deck of this build.
I'm thinking I can cut the 2 outer edges to match the hull, set them and be able to do the attachment for rigging. the center piece would allow hatches w/cabins for access below, as it gets fitted in between the outer boards.
to finish the grooves would be "inked" black then varnished so it looks like a plank deck. we were so clever back then.LOL
Allan
Oct 23, 2019, 08:55 AM
Registered User
Allan, you and I are going to have to take a trip to Milwaukee and see everything Dave is up to. More schooners!
Oct 23, 2019, 09:27 AM
Big Boats Rule!
boater_dave's Avatar
I was at Home Depot after work yesterday and took a look at the wood dowel rack. Useable, with some careful selecting. Many dowels had a bad warp. Several species available, and up to 48" long, so certainly an option. As a test option, self standing (no rigging) spars of slightly larger size may be very helpful.

A sheet of ply, with inked planks, would certainly be an option for decking. Choose a species that has tight grain so I t's not too noticeable. That was very popular in the '50's era pond yacht construction. And would be much faster to build. And keeping with the same vintage for the fittings would mean using simple, readily available hardware to keep the cost down. Traditional, stand-off scale being the goal.

I would think for the first round of sails, home made from whatever material you choose, would be fine. Four sided, single panel, with strengthened corners, should be doable. Maybe venturing into several panels with a little body? Sail control is also fairly simple, as there is lots of room in an EC-12, and super weight saving is not a priority.

For the rule of thumb centers of effort/resistance, it's more geometry than math. And there is a simple functional test for resistance. Maybe I will try using your schooner rig diagram to see if the geometry works out. If the rule of thumb works, that should get us closer to the right mast position. But I still think a functional prototype will be helpful.


Dave
Oct 23, 2019, 11:47 AM
Registered User
thorsail's Avatar

Schooner geometry


fine, you want to throw technical terms like geometry around , well that's out of my league ! LOL. OK Dave--here are all my numbers off the plan I am using. starting from the bow...
.
bow spirit : 8" long off bow
club jib boom : 18" long, swivel pt 1" aft of bow
jib : luff 36" leech 31" foot 16" LP 13.5"
.
fore mast : 19" aft of bow.44" off deck. (w/top 52" LOA off deck)
fore top mast: 12"
fore boom: 13". pins to mast 3.5" off deck
fore gaff : 18" pins to mast 28" off deck
foresail : luff 24" leech 36" foot 12" head 16"
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main mast is 33" aft of bow, 44" high off deck(w/top 60" LOA)
main top mast 16" over main mast
main boom ( marconi rig) 20". 3.5" off deck
marconi main is luff 52" , leech 55" foot 19"
.
if I missed anything, let me know !
Allan
Oct 23, 2019, 08:28 PM
Registered User
I want that boat!
Oct 25, 2019, 05:18 PM
Registered User
I'm fairly new to this forum but I've been on and off with model yachting for well over 20 years and all I can say is, Allan … that is a marvelous project!! In all my years, I can't remember seeing such a beautify conversion. I take my hat off to you sir!!
Oct 25, 2019, 10:34 PM
Registered User
thorsail's Avatar
propaplace
well thanks for the compliment, but i would keep your hat on ( as it were ) since so far i have only put some paint on an old hull.
I did go and pick out some dowels for spars today , so now I have about a 1000 details to work out , still got to figure how I am going to control the "working sails" then a possible flying jib .
A fellow club member tipped me on a "knock off" drum that is one quarter the price of a HiTec drum.
Have to get the insides done first. this could take awhile.
but then that's the point of a winter project.
Allan
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Oct 26, 2019, 10:25 AM
Modeler/ Historian
Stephen Vick's Avatar
Thread OP
On my Schooner Phoenix I utilize two Hitec drum winches one controls Main , wishbone and staysail the other runs a continuous loop to control a Genoa I can also rig a double or triple stack forward with the same loop. What is nice about the Hitec drum winches is they have gobs of power. Not very fast, but torque and reliability are there. Definitely worth a few extra bucks. On an EC 12 hull you have a lot of wiggle room as far as weight and accessibility are concerned. So one could conceivably run a winch for every sail. I would caution you ( as one who went that route) against over complicating your control setup Keep it as simple as possible , and still accomplish what you want it to do. Just my 2 cents.
Last edited by Stephen Vick; Oct 26, 2019 at 10:35 AM.
Oct 26, 2019, 04:45 PM
Registered User
thorsail's Avatar
Stephen
I agree, simple is best.
If anybody has pics of their winch set-ups I sure would appreciate some impute !
Right now I am thinking about a drum for the working sails and maybe another below decks where the line off the drum goes up and out onto the deck , around the foremast , ( and back thru the deck again) and that line the flying jib sheets would connect to. a on deck line , I have a diagram of this ...that second drum would obviously be on it's own channel, if and when that flying jib is rigged. we'll see.
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I recently saw a diagram where a guy had P & S sheets on his topsail, and could tack it ! ( the tack of the sail went up and over the gaff halyards ) that's a bit much !
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hey guys-thanks for your interest in this build - you will keep me motivated to move forward AND I won't feel like I am working alone.
what does Red Green say ? "we're all in this together, I'm pulling for you" !
Allan
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P.S.
Stephen--looks like you are holding your own against those Canterburys ! nice pond too . like the statue.
Last edited by thorsail; Oct 26, 2019 at 04:47 PM. Reason: added ps


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