Rib build QnA (I ask, you answer! :D ) - RC Groups
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Sep 23, 2017, 05:56 PM
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Rib build QnA (I ask, you answer! :D )


As some of you know, I'm looking to test some designs for R/C Flying Wing (Tailless) planes. Once I do more research, I'll be posting some questions to follow up my findings (with sources for you guys and gals to check out if you want to) as far as the generally held conceptions of what the "best" sweep angle is, etc. For now, I want to relay some more of how I plan to test the numerous designs I've come up with during/after my preliminary research.

Unlike what many do (as far as I know of), since this may or may not be used for commercial purposes down the line , I want to build each aircraft using ribs instead of a solid piece of foam that's cut to the airfoil shape. With ribbing, it would also make it a lot easier to put together with twist (if necessary) since most of the time it'll be just me doing this.

Questions (for those of you who build using ribs instead of a solid piece of foam):
  • how thick do you make the ribs? I'll be using plain styrofoam to cut the airfoils into for the initial tests, as that's what I have on hand. For further testing down the line, I plan to use Balsa wood and other materials as the project progresses and I whittle out the unusable designs.
  • what interval do you put the ribs at? I'm considering putting the ribbing 2" apart, and the control build will be 48" across. I want to be able to scale up and down as needed, as that's important to what I'm doing.

I'm open to constructive criticism if you have any. Thank you all for your contributions.
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Sep 23, 2017, 06:09 PM
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flypaper 2's Avatar
Much easier to build with solid foam. If you want to have washout, tilt the tip rib with a little negative attitude.

Gord.
Sep 23, 2017, 06:45 PM
IMO ( In My Opinion ) →
balsa or carbon's Avatar
I skimmed over your 4 posts here on RCG , and here is my recommendation :

1) Buy or build something and learn to be proficient at flying an RC plane

2) Build an existing , proven , well supported flying wing design .... like the FliteTest Versa Wing

3) Take what you've learned so far to develop your own flying wing design

4) When you have developed a successful flying wing ..... and know which electronics , transmitter , etc will work well for your design ..... THEN buy transmitters , components , etc in bulk . It would be a shame ( and a waste of money ) to buy large quantities of components , only to find that they won't work for your ultimate goal flying wing .





For learning/practicing "bank & yank" style RC flying ( almost ALL flying wings fly "bank & yank" style ) , this is a very easy to make delta type flying wing :


Giant simple delta (2 min 0 sec)
Sep 23, 2017, 08:00 PM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by balsa or carbon
I skimmed over your 4 posts here on RCG , and here is my recommendation :

1) Buy or build something and learn to be proficient at flying an RC plane

2) Build an existing , proven , well supported flying wing design .... like the FliteTest Versa Wing

3) Take what you've learned so far to develop your own flying wing design

4) When you have developed a successful flying wing ..... and know which electronics , transmitter , etc will work well for your design ..... THEN buy transmitters , components , etc in bulk . It would be a shame ( and a waste of money ) to buy large quantities of components , only to find that they won't work for your ultimate goal flying wing .





For learning/practicing "bank & yank" style RC flying ( almost ALL flying wings fly "bank & yank" style ) , this is a very easy to make delta type flying wing :


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HidonC-UD18
I was going to build this wing from MyGeekShow as the "control" wing to become familiar with it. It's the one that most closely matches the goals I have for this project that I've seen (I can't judge that well with just seeing flights unless there's quite a few videos to back it up, but even then the context may be lost):
Designing the Raptor - Raptor Project (7 min 54 sec)
Hope that works...
Trent (My Geek Show host) has made several versions of this plane (the Raptor), and it's my favorite by far. Ofc, I want to ensure it is the best for what I hope to accomplish, so I'm going to build that one first. After putting it through the same preliminary tests as I will other design configurations, I'll use the results from the Raptor as a baseline for other designs, assuming it is in fact what I want to have my project be based on.

Other videos using the Raptor are listed (but not linked, as I don't know the forum's limits to that) below:
Flying Wing Research - Raptor Project
Episode 52 - Announcing the Raptor!
Episode 53 - Building the Raptor!
Episode 54 - Building the Raptor!
Episode 55 - Successful Raptor Maiden Flight!
Episode 127 - Announcing the Raptor 140!
Episode 129 - The Raptor 140 is DONE!!
Episode 130 - Raptor 140 Maiden Flight!
Episode 131 - Flight Testing the Raptor 140!
Episode 141 - Introducing the Raptor 100!
and I'm certain there's more if you wanted to find them. Those are just the ones I've rewatched recently and are in my YouTube history tab.

Attached is a screenshot of the build he's done, btw.

I know he's not the most proficient guy (and some of his info is in error - e.g., the wing area units, though he admitted he was in error in the comments when someone pointed it out to him), but he's better than I am and is the one I trust the most. However, I plan to do my own research and tests to figure out if the info he presents about the 'optimal' design is in fact accurate since he doesn't list his sources. If the Raptor is indeed as good as he makes it out to be, it'll be a great platform to base my own design [tests] on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by flypaper 2
Much easier to build with solid foam. If you want to have washout, tilt the tip rib with a little negative attitude.

Gord.
I am considering making the wing out of solid foam vs cutting each individual rib and spar for each plane, but the mental barrier I'm faced with is if it would make a significant difference in flight pattern, behavior, or other parameter I'm going to be testing. I just don't know (and likely won't until/if I try it), but it would be faster to get through the initial designs if it wouldn't significantly impact the process of developing the final plan. Then again, the wings wouldn't be able to be reused as easily as if I did take the time to make the wing spar and ribs for each individual plane, saving the airfoil ribbing and spars for each subsequent test. Pick your poison, I guess?

I'm also not sure about attaching 1" thick pieces of styrofoam together in a minimal jigsaw fashion to make the 48" wingspan (the largest sheet I have is 14" by 10", I think, and I have a somewhat limited supply of various sizes of inch-thick styro sheets). Assuming that won't work (feel free to chime in on this assumption), I'm not willing to pay for foam for as many designs I might have to test, which is why I've been leaning towards the ribbing and spar instead of a solid piece of foam (for sheer reusability, so long as I'm not testing the airfoil or length/scalability of the plane). By the time the designs are whittled down to make the cost feasible, it'll probably be time to use more advanced materials (Balsa, etc).
Sep 23, 2017, 08:46 PM
IMO ( In My Opinion ) →
balsa or carbon's Avatar
Nothing wrong with wanting to build a Raptor as your first flying wing , BUT ........ it is not going to be ideal for learning to fly RC , especially if you are doing this on your own ( without the assistance of an experienced RC flyer ) .

If your experience is a few seconds of flying ( and crashing ) a toy RC plane , I strongly recommend starting with a proper trainer . A proper trainer will :
1) be able to fly slowly ( gives you time to correct a mistake ) .
2) have self-leveling stability ( plane wants to stay right-side-up all by itself ) .

When (if) you get a proper trainer : do the first flights over a huge , open , grass covered field . NO walls , fences , buildings , poles , trees , etc . ....... so the only thing to crash into is the ground . And do the first flights in NO WIND ...... in most places , the best chance for no wind is at sun-up .




Here is the home made plane I use to teach first time RC flyers , very slow and super stable :


Copy of EzFly with under-cambered wing (1 min 57 sec)
Sep 23, 2017, 09:24 PM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by balsa or carbon
Nothing wrong with wanting to build a Raptor as your first flying wing , BUT ........ it is not going to be ideal for learning to fly RC , especially if you are doing this on your own ( without the assistance of an experienced RC flyer ) .

If your experience is a few seconds of flying ( and crashing ) a toy RC plane , I strongly recommend starting with a proper trainer . A proper trainer will :
1) be able to fly slowly ( gives you time to correct a mistake ) .
2) have self-leveling stability ( plane wants to stay right-side-up all by itself ) .

When (if) you get a proper trainer : do the first flights over a huge , open , grass covered field . NO walls , fences , buildings , poles , trees , etc . ....... so the only thing to crash into is the ground . And do the first flights in NO WIND ...... in most places , the best chance for no wind is at sun-up .




Here is the home made plane I use to teach first time RC flyers , very slow and super stable :


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxaUadvhgbc
Touche. Is it as simple to build as it seems with the image? A few sheets of foam cut to shape and that's it (besides the servos and other components, ofc)? Send me build plans, vid, info if it's not, please. Thank you.
Sep 23, 2017, 10:01 PM
IMO ( In My Opinion ) →
balsa or carbon's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyinWingFanatic
Touche. Is it as simple to build as it seems with the image? A few sheets of foam cut to shape and that's it (besides the servos and other components, ofc)? Send me build plans, vid, info if it's not, please. Thank you.


So I know what materials/components are available to you , where in the world do you live ..... USA , Europe , Australia ?



Here is the thread for the EzFly : https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...-trainer-plane

The most up-to-date plans are these ( PDF file ) : https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...6&d=1334660760

To print the plans on your computer/printer :
open the file on Adobe Reader
set the scale you want at the top of the page ( 100% , 125% , etc )
on your printer's set up page : select "poster" , "cut marks" and "labels"
your printer will then print out tiles that can be scotch-taped together into one large poster-sized set of plans



The key to making ANY plane slow flying is "light wing loading" . Build it as light as is reasonably possible , with as much wing area as is reasonably possible . DON"T add "crash proofing" reinforcements , they will only make the plane heavier ...... and more LIKELY to crash .



In the photo below are what the flat foam pieces ( you'll get from the plans ) should look like , and how I assemble them .
Sep 23, 2017, 10:04 PM
flyin' fool
goldguy's Avatar
Build a trainer as suggested to get you thumbs, eyes and brain all on the same page. Practice, practice, repair, practice, repair some more and practice until everything becomes automatic.

Well, except the crashing part. That never goes away!!
Last edited by goldguy; Sep 23, 2017 at 10:13 PM.
Sep 24, 2017, 12:05 AM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by balsa or carbon
So I know what materials/components are available to you , where in the world do you live ..... USA , Europe , Australia ?



Here is the thread for the EzFly : https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...-trainer-plane

The most up-to-date plans are these ( PDF file ) : https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...6&d=1334660760

To print the plans on your computer/printer :
open the file on Adobe Reader
set the scale you want at the top of the page ( 100% , 125% , etc )
on your printer's set up page : select "poster" , "cut marks" and "labels"
your printer will then print out tiles that can be scotch-taped together into one large poster-sized set of plans



The key to making ANY plane slow flying is "light wing loading" . Build it as light as is reasonably possible , with as much wing area as is reasonably possible . DON"T add "crash proofing" reinforcements , they will only make the plane heavier ...... and more LIKELY to crash .



In the photo below are what the flat foam pieces ( you'll get from the plans ) should look like , and how I assemble them .
I've edited my profile to reflect my location. I guess I'm part of the community now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by goldguy
Build a trainer as suggested to get you thumbs, eyes and brain all on the same page. Practice, practice, repair, practice, repair some more and practice until everything becomes automatic.

Well, except the crashing part. That never goes away!!
Lol, thanks. I do need to learn how to better fly when the craft is in sight, as that was the issue with the first craft I flew.

'Left? No, RIGHT!' Too late - crash into a wall. It was coming towards me if I remember right, and I turned the stick as if it was going away.

So, yeaa... Let's start with a trainer.
Sep 24, 2017, 12:49 AM
IMO ( In My Opinion ) →
balsa or carbon's Avatar
The EzFly can be made with Adams Readi-Board foam board from the Dollar Tree Store , $1 for a 20" x 30" sheet . If you leave the paper skins on it will be stronger , but you can't let it get wet . Cut the foam parts with a new , very sharp blade ..... a dull blade will tear the foam . I use low temp hot glue to assemble the airframe , and packing tape for the control surface hinges . A cheap arrow shaft or bamboo skewer can be used for the wing spar .

What is your budget for transmitter/receiver , electronics , batteries , etc. ?
Sep 24, 2017, 01:41 AM
Registered User
As far as the trainer, I'm going to see what types of servos and such are in the rag-tag team of R/C vehicles I have lying around and take stock of what I have. Maybe I can jerry-rig something up so I just have to purchase one or two parts. None of the R/C stuff I have are in particularly good condition (an old, battered [broken wing] Dragonfly that I think I can use the wing rods as support spars for the trainer; the old R/C car I mentioned somewhere that can't hold its battery anymore (the plastic holding it in broke ages ago); an old boat I got second-hand that I was going to try to find a battery for...; the small trainer heli I got a while back that I'm dubious if it'll be of much use; and several transmitters of various quality from those R/C vehicles), so I might as well see if I can repurpose them for something better. I guess my schedule tomorrow is very full with this being in it as well, should I get a few solid hours to work on it.

Hopefully I'll start training for a job this coming week (it's looking promising to say the least), so if I need to buy parts I can in about a month with one of my first paychecks. Otherwise, I'll have to stick to MacGyvering like I'm currently doing.

I'm also a small-time YouTuber, so if you would like to see video of the process I can do that as well. My plans had included coming here for info without actually joining the community (I know, I know, shame on me. ), but since I'm here I suppose I can whip something up for y'all to see what I'm doing before publishing the videos when I'm ready to start my Flying High Friday's series that I had planned to do this with. When I'm getting ready to publish them, the videos will be unavailable for a few hours to a few days while it's scheduled (it'll be unlisted when y'all see it first, but it will be private for a day or two in advance of when it goes public on my channel since to schedule an upload it must be private). Sorry for any inconvenience this may cause, but at least you'll get to see it first!

Oh, and I'll try to sort out a proper introduction in the build thread since I'm thinking it might be good to start a new thread for all my content. Hopefully one day I can help others out on here as well!

E2A: @balsa or carbon - my budget is pretty much non-existent until I get a job, but I think I might have enough in the various R/C vehicles listed as my 'Rag-tag team'. If they all pitch in I should have just enough to scrape by until I can afford more. I'm crashing, so I'll get some of the Readi-Board Monday (since I can afford a dollar ) and will hopefully have it up in the air Tuesday. I'll post the first video later in the week, probably on Friday since it's most fitting.
Last edited by FlyinWingFanatic; Sep 24, 2017 at 01:45 AM. Reason: it seems like I missed a post
Sep 24, 2017, 02:29 AM
IMO ( In My Opinion ) →
balsa or carbon's Avatar
Ok , let me know what useable components you come up with ..... we'll see if we can make it work for an EzFly .
You'll need :
Transmitter/receiver
motor
electronic speed control
two servos
battery & charger
Sep 24, 2017, 02:44 AM
flyin' fool
goldguy's Avatar
Never mind coming up with one whole dollar. Just go dumpster diving for free stuff. Check this out .................. https://redirect.viglink.com/?format...d%20rc%20plane


and this.................


Flying Trash (6 min 59 sec)
Last edited by goldguy; Sep 24, 2017 at 03:04 AM.
Sep 24, 2017, 03:28 AM
Registered User
Extreme Sports's Avatar
When I read your first post, my initial though was: "Oh no, not another guy staring at the birds and wondering if he can make a flying machine....seemingly oblivious to the reality that humans have been flying and crashing for over 100 years, and have pretty much well figured it out"

But I see you are listening to the wise advice being offered. Welcome to the hobby and well done on a good call. For some reason taking advice seems the hardest part of this hobby for some. Not everyone's advice will be right, and not even the best advice can miraculously make you a competent designer, builder and pilot overnight, but it will make the rewarding journey there a lot shorter and less frustrating. It is a journey - there is so much to learn, and so many different options and solutions. Search around the beginner's forum when you have a chance - you will see that there are lots of folks in a similar situation and lots to be learned from their experiences.

Good luck and have fun.

Hang around on these forums and soon enough you will get a ring side seat watching someone insisting on ignoring advice...and no doubt have a chuckle at the road you might have followed

EDIT: OK, having read your other thread, I can only hope that the route you have sensibly chosen to follow on this thread helps narrow the vast gulf between your dreams, your current reality and what could be possible.
Last edited by Extreme Sports; Sep 24, 2017 at 12:19 PM. Reason: advice, not advise...damn autospelling!
Sep 24, 2017, 06:24 AM
Registered User
flypaper 2's Avatar
Another material you might try is Corrugated plastic, the stuff "For Sale " signs are made of. Heaver than $ foam but much more rugged. A Pizza Box made of this stuff would be very rugged , made of this material. Do a search here on the Pizza Box to see how to build one. You can build a regular plane from it , but the P Box is much more rugged. Back off on the controls and it's a gentle flier.
Best is to have a flying buddy to give you a hand at first.

Gord.


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