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Sep 11, 2017, 12:01 AM
Registered User
LowFlyingKiwi's Avatar
Thread OP
Question

Flying without a Gyro.... anyone have experience with this?


Hello.

I'm new! Yep, with silly a question and all. : - )

So I have a Big Lama that I am studying, and I am learning a whole bunch of stuff fast.
( this is good.)

But I am still bemused by the Gyro.

Can someone explain why I would really want one?

The reason I ask is I have spent ages in a sim using my rudder in fixed wing and helis ...
and the gryo just sucks the "life" out of the rudder... ( IMHO)

Example:

Slipping sideways but there is no "weather vane" or nosing into the air flow.
( the gyro is actively stopping this by applying counter torque)

and also the motors must get punished by this! Constantly trying to keep a heading.

I would LOVE to do an A B test to see how much the Gyro effects the flight character.

Um, can I turn it off??? can I put a dip switch on the gyro board.....

so yes. um. Thanks!

Warm regards from New Zealand!

Robert.
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Sep 11, 2017, 06:39 PM
Flying helis since 1978
rotorist's Avatar
Back in the dark ages of r/c helis the tail gyro was invented to allow better control of the tail. Without one the tail naturally wants to spin against the rotation of the main rotor.
There was a lot of correction needed to keep the tail in check without one.
With the early gyros, they were mechanical, using flywheels spinning, to hold the tail from whipping around due to the counter torque of the main rotor.

These were rate style gyros.

Enter the chip style gyros, they provided the ability of the gyro to have heading hold capability. This keeps the heli from weathervaning in a turn.
If your sim allows it, try turning off the heading hold, and put it in rate mode.

I do not know if your heli has the ability to change the gyros.

rotorist.
Last edited by rotorist; Sep 11, 2017 at 06:43 PM. Reason: addedstuffstocontentofpost
Sep 11, 2017, 09:42 PM
Cranky old fart
Balr14's Avatar
This is a coax you are talking about, so all the gyro does is maintain yaw by adjusting the speed between lower and upper rotor heads. Flying a coax without a gyro simply means constant yaw corrections; it gets very tedious real fast. The gyro has no bearing on rudder control. Coaxes don't "weather vane", the tail is just decoration. You could break it off and it wouldn't make any difference.
Sep 11, 2017, 11:46 PM
Registered User
LowFlyingKiwi's Avatar
Thread OP
Salute Rotorist and Balr14!

My point being that "waethervaning" is COOL! and gyros kill this buzz.

Being a novice I have no idea how taxing constantly adjusting the controls to
stay "in control" is, but, I have just assumed that this is part of the charm of flying a heli.
Constantly applying peddle inputs to keep your nose aiming in the direction you elect
is the deal. Right. Even adjusting the cyclic to compensate for asymmetrical lift is a deal.

( Maybe I need to take a real heli taster flight.... might make me think different. or not...)

And the coax is going to weathervane without a gyro, they put tails on real coaxials for that reason. and larger vert stabs... you can't break hydrodynamics it's the law.... Actually that might look misleading, you don't "need" a tail on a coaxial, true, but if you do want it to weather vane you do need a tail. and the gyro off. I like weathervane action. I also like full control... and cold beer.

maybe I am showing my greeness here, but I would like to try out a no gyro heli for kicks and
sort my own way I suppose. Maybe after a few (x10) hours I might just get the knack.

and it must be even easier with Coax's, adding thrust is not going to effect your heading as
much as it might/should with a single rotor.

Some anecdotal evidence of non gyro heli flight would be a good read.
Did anyone get good flying non gyro?

I guess that's the killer question right there:

Who was the non gyro 'copter boss? (NGCB)

Salute!

Robert.
Last edited by LowFlyingKiwi; Sep 11, 2017 at 11:53 PM.
Sep 12, 2017, 05:56 AM
Registered User
HyperHelis's Avatar
I started out flying with out a gyro. Not as much fun as it sounds but doable. Get yourself a tx that supports revo mix and go for it.

http://www.rcheliwiki.com/Revolution_mix
Sep 12, 2017, 09:14 AM
Registered User
tried lil syma 3 ch,no gryo heli,there very low cost,cheap way to try no gyro bit.its not going to break every time it spins in
Sep 13, 2017, 03:28 AM
Registered User
LowFlyingKiwi's Avatar
Thread OP
Hello thanks for the info!

I am practising in Heli-x with the Trex450 ( I think) and the worst crashes I suffer are when the ship is slipping sideways and it is hard to see which way . ( it's high and far out)
However if the ship weathervaned into the fall then all I would need to do is nose up, as it's heading would be nose into the direction of travel. Not some random direction.

Obviously I am not an expert but falling sideways from a great height coupled loss of orientation seem
like a very bad combination. and the gyro is the cause of this.... unless there is some magical skill I seem to have overlooked.

Thanks for revolution mix link, very interesting.

Obviously in a Coax you wont get increase thrust torque reaction, so that kind of thing is moot.

I am wondering how I could implement a simple mixer with no gyro to experiment with my model.

Are there any boffins with links to such things? Can I do it from the TX end and keep the RX simple?

i.e the thrust and rudder is mixed at the TX and the RX is just ch 1 to 4 with no gyro....

Conceptually I don't mind trying out flying with constant rudder inputs. Especially if I had a large vertical stab. Like the Kamov KA-25 ( it's got three even...)

or maybe just a throttle quadrant with ruddering implemented by asymmetrical thrust....

Thanks anyway!

Robert.
Last edited by LowFlyingKiwi; Sep 13, 2017 at 03:50 AM.
Sep 13, 2017, 04:53 AM
Registered User
HyperHelis's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by LowFlyingKiwi
Hello thanks for the info!

I am practising in Heli-x with the Trex450 ( I think) and the worst crashes I suffer are when the ship is slipping sideways and it is hard to see which way . ( it's high and far out)
However if the ship weathervaned into the fall then all I would need to do is nose up, as it's heading would be nose into the direction of travel. Not some random direction.

Obviously I am not an expert but falling sideways from a great height coupled loss of orientation seem
like a very bad combination. and the gyro is the cause of this.... unless there is some magical skill I seem to have overlooked.

Thanks for revolution mix link, very interesting.

Obviously in a Coax you wont get increase thrust torque reaction, so that kind of thing is moot.

I am wondering how I could implement a simple mixer with no gyro to experiment with my model.

Are there any boffins with links to such things? Can I do it from the TX end and keep the RX simple?

i.e the thrust and rudder is mixed at the TX and the RX is just ch 1 to 4 with no gyro....

Conceptually I don't mind trying out flying with constant rudder inputs. Especially if I had a large vertical stab. Like the Kamov KA-25 ( it's got three even...)

or maybe just a throttle quadrant with ruddering implemented by asymmetrical thrust....

Thanks anyway!

Robert.
https://redirect.viglink.com/?format...Revolution_mix
Sep 13, 2017, 08:32 PM
Vintage Heli Flyer.
As HyperHelis mentioned above, it was quite common back in the dark days to fly without a gyro, it does take some getting used to but it can be done.

I am one of those Pilots who learnt that way and can still fly without one. By the time I got my own first Heli, Gyros had appeared on the market but they were very expensive pieces of kit. (As with any new technology that comes out) I continued flying without one until they were more affordable.

You can overcome the tail problem to a certain degree by setting up your tail rotor with a bit of positive pitch to counteract the inital torque.

I remember the set up instructions given to me with my Kalt Baron 20 and it was recommended to set the tail rotor up with 4 degrees of pitch at idle. This took care of the tail when initially increasing throttle to lift off and from there you would have to do the rest.

You could combine it with another trick as seen on many full size Helis, an airfoil shape fin with a little offset on that to cause sideways force in the required direction to help keep it straight in forward flight. (as you would expect to see on a normal plane rudder)

Have a look at the pic below, it shows the tail end of an AS-350 which has clockwise rotation on the main rotor. The tailfin clearly has an offset to the right which would be the same as applying right rudder keeping the nose straight and in the same direction as the main rotor

Mark
Sep 14, 2017, 06:52 AM
Registered User
LowFlyingKiwi's Avatar
Thread OP
Hello chaps.

I read the Revo mix on heliwiki, Thanks for the link. : -)

My problem at the moment is that I only have a my Big Lama to experiment on and the tx/rx that it came with.
( Actually I have a Dx4e TX and orange RX for my super cub...)

Question:

Can I get a Mixer for my coax as a separate unit? ( I can hear the chorus of *why would you want one of those* from NZ...)

then a couple of Brushed motor ESC's ....

Or, is there some kind of development board for this kind of thing?

And other news:

I disassembled my B.L. and had a look at all the parts. I am impressed with the build quality.
It's not too shabby really. If I really get hooked I might see if I can track down some *bling* parts for it.
( I am pretty sure there is a tone of that stuff mouldering in boxes in sheds as I type...)

Reassembled it no problems but have to go get me some liquid threadlocker before next training flight.

am also thinking about making a depron KA-32 fuse for it... or an OH-6... but I think the KA-22 is more logical...

Salute!

Robert.
Last edited by LowFlyingKiwi; Sep 14, 2017 at 07:05 AM.
Sep 14, 2017, 08:25 AM
Registered User
HyperHelis's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by LowFlyingKiwi
Hello chaps.

I read the Revo mix on heliwiki, Thanks for the link. : -)

My problem at the moment is that I only have a my Big Lama to experiment on and the tx/rx that it came with.
( Actually I have a Dx4e TX and orange RX for my super cub...)

Question:

Can I get a Mixer for my coax as a separate unit? ( I can hear the chorus of *why would you want one of those* from NZ...)

then a couple of Brushed motor ESC's ....

Or, is there some kind of development board for this kind of thing?

And other news:

I disassembled my B.L. and had a look at all the parts. I am impressed with the build quality.
It's not too shabby really. If I really get hooked I might see if I can track down some *bling* parts for it.
( I am pretty sure there is a tone of that stuff mouldering in boxes in sheds as I type...)

Reassembled it no problems but have to go get me some liquid threadlocker before next training flight.

am also thinking about making a depron KA-32 fuse for it... or an OH-6... but I think the KA-22 is more logical...

Salute!

Robert.
I use to tinker with running seperates on quite a few of my fixed pitch helis and a couple modified coaxial helis. The dionysus mixer always worked great for me. As far as running seperates(seperate components) a couple brushed 12-15amp esc's will do the job. Its alot of fun tinkering with this setup. Since you only have a basic tx a simple piezo gyro would work great and used would run about the same cost as the mixer. Just post looking for one. Im certain somebody has one collecting dust. The mixer page even gives you a good diagram to follow.

http://dionysusdesign.com/product_in...0h1i8jlcpdori3
Last edited by HyperHelis; Sep 14, 2017 at 09:00 AM.
Sep 14, 2017, 08:56 AM
Registered User
HyperHelis's Avatar
There used to be a lot of info out there on the subject but it has since started to slowly diminish. Now all the newcomers who want to tinker are now relying on the memory of those of us who used to play around with it. I even had to sit back for a few minutes to remember how I did it. Lol I'm glad to help out Took a while for my memory to kick in.
Last edited by HyperHelis; Sep 14, 2017 at 09:02 AM.
Sep 14, 2017, 10:39 AM
Registered User
LowFlyingKiwi's Avatar
Thread OP
Heck!

The "coaxial mixer" !!! * slap forehead* of course!

That and the "rate gyro" and I'll be happy as a happy thing. : - )

By George there is light at the end of the tunnel!

Thanks HyperHelis!

and...

I was just faffing about in Clearview with a "honey bee" ( i think...)
and noticed it was weathervaning like a champ. YES!
Switched over to Heli-x and the trex600 with "heading hold gyro" thingy and immediately hated it.
It was truly horrible. It felt not good. I am not a fan of this "heading hold gyro " nonsense.
We are not going to be friends.
( I am true novice but have spent years flying sims... )

If I have all my ducks in order then the "Rate gyro" lets you weather vane and the "Heading gyro" does not. ( please let me correct in this !)

Now the million dollar question: where do I get the "coaxial mixer" from???

Salute!

Robert.
Sep 14, 2017, 10:42 AM
Registered User
LowFlyingKiwi's Avatar
Thread OP
Ha! I see it's a website selling them. Good!

http://dionysusdesign.com/index.php/...0h1i8jlcpdori3

Great! Fantastic! woo! Now this is what I am talking about and diagrams too!

Salute!

Robert.
Sep 14, 2017, 11:02 AM
Registered User
HyperHelis's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by LowFlyingKiwi
Ha! I see it's a website selling them. Good!

http://dionysusdesign.com/index.php/...0h1i8jlcpdori3

Great! Fantastic! woo! Now this is what I am talking about and diagrams too!

Salute!

Robert.
Happy to help my friend. Yes the piezo gyro will weather vane. I don't care too much for a heading hold gyro neither. Never did. I'm getting back into flying my old Shogun 400 setup with a futaba g-190 piezo gyro. The gws piezo gyro was real good one too. Theres also Cirrus and Hobbico brand both good as well. Start posting pictures of your setup. I wouldn't mind seeing it. Brings back some fun memories.


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