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Aug 26, 2017, 05:09 PM
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Thread OP
Build Log

Building the Dawn


Quote:
Originally Posted by pwallace
I am going to go make some popcorn and tune in for the next exciting installment of what will catch the fancy of BDL?
And the winning answer for the big boat build, is the Dawn! Earl Boebert has posted up some good information over in my thread, "Repurposing, and looking for "vintage" plans?"

I love the boat, it has some history, and some mystery to it. It appears that only one still survives, very possibly the original one built by its designer V.R. Blacket. If that is the case, it still exists in awesome shape in Sydney Australia. Unfortunately, there are very few pictures out there of it. There is a modern picture that may have been taken by Steve Crewes for his article here: (Thank Earl for posting that up!) (PS: I was able to reduce the file size and post it up here.)

I have some interesting ideas for the boat. I got a lot of cool "vintage" tools that will be employed in crafting this. But there will be a mix of VERY modern tossed into it too. I LOVE the look of the old handcrafted running gear on thse boats built in the '30's. The idea of playing with an actual vane gear setup combined with RC, intrigues me too. Although finding, making, or purchasing one of those would not be a simple task.

I have been reading some super cool books with very detailed information on the old building procedures and running gear. This should give me a serious advantage.

This won't be a 3 week, or even 3 month build though. There are a lot of bits that have to fall into place before I put down even a single plank. And I already have a couple other projects nearing completion, in need of being finished first. But, this will give me the time to get things lined up here, figure out how to make planks, get parts collected, get parts made... And most importantly, converting the lofts to shadows. Oh, and the workshop still isn't really ready for a big boat build yet.

But I have ADD and need a new challenge to obsess over. In that regard, I do have another boat on its way to get some more varied on water sailing experience. Not to mention the RS540, and my Razor builds to toss into the water. I am not fully ready to put one of my own builds out in deep water yet though. But soon.

In the meantime, I am going to keep collecting any data that can be found, and post it up here.
Last edited by BiggsDarkLighter; Aug 26, 2017 at 07:22 PM. Reason: better wording...
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Aug 26, 2017, 05:49 PM
FROM THE MIND OF A MADMAN
gpzy's Avatar
A little late to the game, and not sure if anyone has shared this link.
You might be able to find some inspiration.
http://www.angelfire.com/fl4/mft/
Aug 26, 2017, 06:14 PM
Thomas Armstrong
Added photo and updated plans here: http://www.allradiosailboats.com/design/dawn
Aug 26, 2017, 08:39 PM
Registered User
Pm me if you need a vane. I sell a modern design and also have a Stobbe vane that would be more period correct.
Aug 26, 2017, 08:56 PM
Registered User
Thread OP
Quote:
Originally Posted by gpzy
A little late to the game, and not sure if anyone has shared this link.
You might be able to find some inspiration.
http://www.angelfire.com/fl4/mft/
I am very familiar with Milton Thrasher's website, I have spent a lot of time there day dreaming. He founded the local Sarasota Model Yacht Club. Sadly, he passed away about a year (or two) ago. Unless somebody bought (and shares) one of the thumb drives full of his plans, most will never be seen again. The website is still up and appears to function (you can sorta place orders), but I understand nobody has login information to access it and continue... The website is in dire need of attention, I get nasty pop-ups overtime I go on there that really want to download viruses and malware on my computer. I have meant to contact one of the local club members, Boatyard. If anyone knows more, he is very likely to. But it is immaterial for this project. I don't think Dawn is anywhere on his lists, and can't get the information out even if it was.

From the information we have, the Sydney boat may well be the only one left. It has a Berg vane on it circa 1932, and as such it is very likely to be the original boat built by Mr. Blacket. I think it is pretty safe to say that if more than one was ever built, none have been built in the past 4-5 decades. And that none were ever built for RC.

Some of the design cues, like the wishbone boom, are said to be reminiscent of the greatest boat designer ever, Nathanael Herreshoff. I think I will try to pull that one of if I can figure out a good way to make it.
Aug 27, 2017, 10:01 AM
Modeler/ Historian
Stephen Vick's Avatar
Love the lines, she's going to be a real beauty!
Aug 27, 2017, 10:15 AM
Thomas Armstrong
Quote:
Originally Posted by BiggsDarkLighter
I am very familiar with Milton Thrasher's website, I have spent a lot of time there day dreaming. He founded the local Sarasota Model Yacht Club. Sadly, he passed away about a year (or two) ago. Unless somebody bought (and shares) one of the thumb drives full of his plans, most will never be seen again.
If someone makes the content of the thumb drive available to me, I'll happily add all relevant files to www.AllRadioSailboats.com .... Anyone having a copy pls send me an email over to [email protected]

Thanks.
Aug 27, 2017, 04:53 PM
Kimo
tarmstro. Thank you for your work in keeping plans for the older boats. Although I no longer have the room or tools to scratch build models as a former draftsman enjoy looking at the plans. Again thank you for your hard work keeping the older plans around for others to enjoy.
Aug 27, 2017, 06:38 PM
Registered User
Thread OP
Quote:
Originally Posted by slotracer577
Pm me if you need a vane. I sell a modern design and also have a Stobbe vane that would be more period correct.
I am leaning towards your more modern design, customized like we were talking about. Or, I take the time to really learn how they work with the links you sent me and attempt it myself. Anyways to be continued in PM for sure!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hircsailor
tarmstro. Thank you for your work in keeping plans for the older boats.
X$10! Haha! Seriously guys if you like my thread here, it couldn't have been done without resources like his website. Toss a little donation his way! His donation button is way too small and hard to find though... Thank you Thomas!
Aug 28, 2017, 06:52 AM
Thomas Armstrong
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hircsailor
tarmstro. Thank you for your work in keeping plans for the older boats. Although I no longer have the room or tools to scratch build models as a former draftsman enjoy looking at the plans. Again thank you for your hard work keeping the older plans around for others to enjoy.
Thanks a lot Hircsailor! Just enjoying looking at all those designs and photos! Keep them coming!
Nov 24, 2018, 02:24 PM
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Thread OP
So, it seems I had decided long ago this would be the next build! Time to get crackin. And the first problem to solve is the print size of the PDF.... I put a measurement scale on it and discovered that at a locked 100%, it is still only printing to a hull length of 42" While I am planning to build it at 50", I think I want to start with the drawing adjusted to the "full-size" 62.25" first.

I don't think I am going to work from the full-size version, but while I am at it I might as well correct it for correct printing from the original file. At the very least, Thomas can put it up on allradiosailboats.

So, how to do this? I went back through my Editing PDF Plans??? thread and pulled this out from Earl:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Earl Boebert
Graphics Converter will scale PDFs, no problem.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Earl Boebert
GraphicConverter 10 by Lemke Software (not our Lemke, the other one :-))

www.lemkesoft.com

Open the PDF. Use the measuring tool to get a pixel count for the dimension of interest. Alter resolution (pixels per inch) as required to get the pixel count you want. Print actual size. Start building :-)

Cheers,

Earl
I actually downloaded this very software earlier today before finding his second answer. And two more times... After a couple hours of trying to get the software to load, then poking at this and Adobe Illustrator, I still haven't gotten too far along.

Somehow yesterday I was able to take direct readings off the files. Sure, I can do the math using the DPI, but I am seeing a discrepancy for vertical and horizontal lengths on this.

But last night I was also able to change the size of the whole thing by altering the DPI per inch. And I can measure how many pixels a line is, so this is doable other than the vertical oddity.

After a LOT of poking around, I figured out the first problem...
Last edited by BiggsDarkLighter; Nov 25, 2018 at 01:36 AM.
Nov 25, 2018, 03:45 AM
Registered User
Thread OP

1) Adjusting Plans Workflow: How Big is it?


The first problem to figure out is "How big is it?" As simple as this sounds, it isn't. After a lot of poking around and breaking a dozen files or so, I figured out a few different ways.

First off what are we going to measure? Most programs will tell you (with enough digging) how big the canvas or whole image is. But that isn't very useful. We need to know the length of the hull when we print it out correctly. IE 100% and no shrinking. So, let's measure the length of the hull.

It is pretty easy to figure out in most programs the length of a drawn horizontal line in pixels, but as mentioned in the above post, a square wasn't measuring evenly. I wasn't comfortable with only this answer. This may be an unnecessary step here, but you have to do this later to verify anyways I guess.

It will depend on the file your starting with, and the tools (programs) available. In this case, I started off with a .jpg. I prepped the file by opening it in Photoshop CS5 and pulling up grids to verify things were straight (it didn't look like they were before I put the grids up).

To get a point to point measurement without doing the math on a .jpg though, we have to open it in Adobe Illustrator. (There has to be another way, but I didn't find any Mac or PC program I had installed that would.) In the upper right corner of Illustrator select the "Printing and Proofing" workspace. As you pull a point to point line, it will tell you distance and angle.

Measure the hull length. Easiest to use the overhead half view for this one. I had to measure this a couple times to verify. I also couldn't zoom in and do it as it would smear and not redraw until I dropped the line. In this case I got 42.8" after measuring it like a dozen times...

(Seems like I had to select a couple things and tell it I wanted inches, but if so I can't find that now and it does it automatically...)

Now, this seems to be where I ended up breaking files. Saving from Photoshop or Illustrator. So close Illustrator without saving. (Pretty sure it could be done correctly from Illustrator, but again a pain. Just tried again, only saved a random small square... The catch seems to be getting all the 6 dozen settings just right...)

Open the .jpg file with GraphicConverter 10. You can do another measurement, but you will only get the pixels length of the line. Select save as and .pdf. Don't change any defaults, but name the file something to keep confusion minimal. In this case I called it "dawn gc10" so I knew what program I output it from.

Now open this file with Adobe Acrobat Pro. Hopefully, the options are the same as Adobe Reader, will try to check this over on the PC later. In tools select measuring. Now you can select and verify the length in inches. (I am sure metric is selectable also, somehow.)

We now have a measurement! We know what the file will print at if set to 100% etc. I did have a small discrepancy. In Illustrator it seemed to measure 42.8" but in Acrobat I mostly got 42.9". A minor difference and hopefully not a problem later.

Next up will be: Cleanup

The .pdf from above is a throwaway file, unless it is ready to print and at the right size. In my case, it isn't either. I want to do some cleanup, deleting unneeded stuff, change specs, and what not. Editing a .jpeg multiple times goes badly quick. I need to convert the file to .tif format, easy with GC10 it seems!

I still want to output a file that will print the original at the correct size though... I will get to that shortly.

Disclaimer: And again, I think most of the above can be done with basic math. Take the pixel length of the line, get the DPI, and come up with an answer. But, I am working cross platforms and also my concern that vertical pixel count does not seem to match horizontal count. It is a lot of effort, but most of the issue was simply figuring out how the first time. Then it is easy-ish.
Last edited by BiggsDarkLighter; Nov 25, 2018 at 03:52 AM.
Nov 25, 2018, 05:07 AM
Registered User
There are times when I am really glad that I did mine pre computer. A big board, a sheet of paper and a flexible lath to join the dots resulted in a collection of nice smooth curves. I dread to think what would have happened if I'd calculated stuff.
Nov 25, 2018, 10:31 AM
Registered User
You can set the pixel-to-dimension ratio in GC 10 by double-clicking on the caliper icon, measuring a line, and setting to various units. All measurements after that will be displayed in units.

All paper plans are distorted, the older they are the more distorted they are. Typically the paper changes in the horizontal dimension more than in the vertical one. In the old days builders would take printed plans, cut them apart (say, at each station for the profile view), glue the segments at the proper spacing, and then redraw and fair. Same for the plan view and sections.

You can do this with a combination of GC10 and EazyDraw (another terrific piece of software). Work in png format so you get transparency. I always start with the profile view.

First take your scan and adjust it's size until the distance between waterlines is what you want. At this point the station to station distance will probably be wrong (usually too short, owing to paper shrinkage).

Then cut zones (e.g. station to station) and paste onto an EazyDraw grid at the correct interval and alignment. There will be gaps in the original outline.

Then add a new layer and use polyline + smooth to get the shape. This will yield a drawing that will be about as close to the long-lost original as it is possible to get.

Next I do the plan view, adjusting the buttock line distance to correct and cutting and pasting sections to the proper station spacing. Sections are done last.

Note also that all drawings of this era were approximations and final fairing was done on the building board.

Cheers,

Earl
Nov 25, 2018, 12:16 PM
Registered User
Thread OP
WOW thank you Earl! Okay, I will give that process a tryout in a little bit. So far your methods are working pretty well for me!

Well, when all else fails I have some goodies in my eBay watch list.

A compensating polar planimeter. Supposedly, this allows you to calculate volume. Probably not smart enough to figure it out, but it will look cool on the drafting table at least yeah?! There are digital ones too, but they take up too much room and feel like cheating.

A couple pantographs. Yeah, it would be easy to make one but they go for next to nothing. I think I want a metal one. Still super cheap.

I couldn't find any reasonably priced ducks... $100 or more for 4-5 is dumb. I have buckets of lead. These I will make.

Some sets of basic drafting tools. I like cases and organization, so hopefully it will be a set in a nice case. I like matching tools and have good memories of using Staedtler.

For a couple years now, I have been looking for the "right" mechanical pencil. I wanted one that was ALL metal. Turns out it is made by Staedtler. Also turns out that you can get lead mechanical holders from Staedtler for 2mm leads. And that those are available in drawing weights too! Best part? The pencils and holders are cheap. Oh, and they also sell normal wooden pencils. I will be getting an assortment of these.

I swear when I took drafting, we had some sort of "drafting machine" that attached to the table. And it had all the functions above built into it. Or planimeter, pantograph, and a few other forgotten things, plus being a parallel arm too. I have been looking, but I have no idea what it was called. Maybe they were just the same brand but separate tools... It was probably 30yrs ago.

But yeah even with just a pantograph I suspect I could already have finished this... Computers and calculations are feeling like more of a headache than a benefit in this case. Still, I have a couple of ideas to try out, and just tracing things is even easier than a pantograph. So I am at least going to get the drawing printing to the correct size.

Another reason, I am not sure I can figure out using the CAD software well enough to get this input into the computer. But since I do not have to increase and decrease the files evenly in both directions, I can probably increase the keel depth perfectly just by altering the vertical %. This is a case where "cheating" it by doing it on the computer will make it so much easier. Doing it manually would mean redrawing all the stations. This way the stations are increased the exact amount along with the keel. When doing this I have to remove the overhead view so it doesn't get altered. But, the same principle can be applied there too. Beam could be adjusted by changing the horizontal and vertical axis (seperatly), and removing the side view of the hull from the changes...

Earl posted this up in one of my older threads:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Earl Boebert
For help on drawing plans:

http://usvmyg.org/design/design.htm

And remember the first rule of lofting: "A fair line outranks any given measurement."

If you are attempting a hull shape with which you are unfamiliar, I recommend carving a half hull to help visualize it. This then makes a nice wall decoration :-)

Cheers,

Earl
I will likely end up doing some of this by hand. But when I am finished I would like some sort of "record" of what I did. A set of drawings I can share at least. Maybe even a full set of shadow templates. Whatever I do, this is at least (mostly) fun! And nice procrastination from real-world problems. Like the car in my driveway needing to be put back together...
Last edited by BiggsDarkLighter; Nov 25, 2018 at 12:22 PM.


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