An Old School “pattern" plane , finally with plans - Page 4 - RC Groups
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Aug 09, 2017, 04:36 PM
flyin' fool
goldguy's Avatar
The first foam 3D machines, the one that started it all, was the Shock Flyer with a flat plate. It did everything and anything with ease.
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Aug 09, 2017, 05:58 PM
gpw
gpw
“There’s no place like Foam”
gpw's Avatar
Gold , all the 3D machines we can remember had flat plate airfoils, our first 3D plane was EWO’s “Amos Moses “ … A Good flier , we built several , and some for friends…
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...Amos+moses+EWO
Aug 10, 2017, 04:31 AM
flyin' fool
goldguy's Avatar
When it comes to flat, KF or not, weight is more important to performance in my book.
Aug 10, 2017, 04:53 AM
gpw
gpw
“There’s no place like Foam”
gpw's Avatar
I’m with you Gold … On an average 10 0z. Foamie , even one ounce is 10% of the overall weight … and if you think it doesn’t make a difference , try adding the extra weight and see how it flies … Although we don’t get too obsessive about weight , we do try to keep everything as light as we can … Foam being the lightest component , is why we try to make everything out of foam , and skip a lot of the “reinforcement” . If something fails we only reinforce it at that point, and not everywhere … Take a wing as an example , the only real stresses on a wing (flying) are in the middle where it meets the fuselage , so a tip to tip spar is just extra weight and not really necessary … a tapered spar is the ticket …thick in the middle tapering to nothing at the tips … We’re currently experimenting shaving oversize Bamboo skewers with a small block plane to provide a rudimentary tapered spar … The weight saving effort may seem excessive , but all the little weight savings add up … 10 little things make one big thing …

On a slope plane that may NOT apply …depending how much of the sky is going UP … Gold , I’m sure you can provide that information.
Aug 10, 2017, 06:35 AM
I Look, Listen, and Learn
Timbo383's Avatar
I have a question for you guys. I don't 3D....yet, and would also like to try sloping, but Dallas is pretty flat, so that may be awhile. But wouldn't it be better to have firm, none flexing tips for better 3d moves?
Aug 10, 2017, 06:47 AM
gpw
gpw
“There’s no place like Foam”
gpw's Avatar
Tim , if you mean the wild Gyrations of some 3D fliers vs the graceful “choreography ” of the “Pattern” planes … er, YES!!! But it all flexes somewhat anyway , you just can’t see it , and naturally , there’s always "the Compromise" you have to make between flexibility and the weight gain trying to make in inflexible . And actually Foam is pretty stiff really ( for it’s weight) . We were taught long ago to “Underbuild” and if something broke , reinforce only that spot .With a plane , Lightness is everything , especially on our scale . Big Bird vs little Bird. It’s the air , and we’re just essentially “ surfing” …

And you’ll notice most planes are designed to fly within a particular flight envelope … low to high speed range , and a “Do Not Exceed” speed … it’s really like that for our models too . We’ve had Foamies ~ 100 Mph with no problem ( Flat plates) , but we definitely found the Do Not Exceed speed of EPP , which resulted in “Aeroelastic divergence” . Below that speed we could do anything we wanted , above , and the plane was all over the place, uncontrollable … ( and the EPP was CF “reinforced” too )

Which comes back to the long running discussion of “Why one plane won’t do it All ? “ … as controversial as the “downwind turn” ..
Last edited by gpw; Aug 10, 2017 at 06:59 AM.
Aug 10, 2017, 07:17 AM
Registered User
Timbo, an interesting question that I cannot answer from experience or training. But just letting my mind wonder a little bit - It seems that a little wing flex, say in a turn or a loop, provides some polyhedral effect and adds stability to the maneuver. On the other hand, a tight roll might be a little slower with wing flex. My gut feeling is that flex in a plane helps in some maneuvers and hurts others. But again, this is just my mind rattling around.
Last edited by fishflying; Aug 10, 2017 at 01:05 PM.
Aug 10, 2017, 11:19 AM
flyin' fool
goldguy's Avatar
Stiff as a board is best for instant and precise input, no matter the model. Avoid floppy and flexible.

Same goes for control linkages.
Aug 11, 2017, 09:05 AM
Ken's CAD Models
dz1sfb's Avatar
A very sweet looking flyer. Agree with earlier comments about a fuller fuselage. Might have to build one, as I prefer pattern over 3D.

Ken
Latest blog entry: Mini H Quad Project
Aug 11, 2017, 11:15 AM
gpw
gpw
“There’s no place like Foam”
gpw's Avatar
Ken , the thing we liked was it’s “Smoothness"… not jerky like some 3D planes . relaxing for me , Big aerobatics we can enjoy a while .. easy to get everything nice and “round” .

I was looking at one of those Foam 3’ kiddie gliders and thinking … with a little modification to the fuselage ( and some imagination) May be possible to make a thin tapered fuselage to fit the moments of this one … But then the Profile worked fine on the old one ( and stick) . Just a matter of aesthetics … And of course , we’ll report on the Crutch and how that works …
Last edited by gpw; Aug 11, 2017 at 11:20 AM.
Aug 11, 2017, 11:33 AM
Registered User
One thing to add to my observations, without the wheel pants you will need a prop saver. It lands very well but without the pants the motor is close to the ground. Haven't broke a prop yet on normal landing but I knock them off the saver almost every time.

I think I've got 7 or 8 packs through plane so far - still enjoying the smooth flights. Knife-edges are challenging but doable. Might try the wheel pants and if it goes well might consider a little more fuselage under the wing - looks sparse without the wheel pants.
Aug 11, 2017, 01:18 PM
gpw
gpw
“There’s no place like Foam”
gpw's Avatar
Fish , here’s mine … sorry it took so long but things have been busy here… The bare airframe is 4.5 oz. now … that’s with the LG thingie’ .. Green Guard foam with Hot glue assembly .. all edges melted/rounded together with the tip of the Hot glue glue gun … that keeps the film on , makes the plane last much longer..
The crutch works great except at the tail where we added some “reinforcement" pieces of foam …. stiff now .
We don’t really land , just flop it in (pancake) or just catch it …
Oh and I wanted to mention with all this prop business , they should be balanced for best performance … If the prop is making noise , it’s probably not balanced . We stick bits of scotch tape on the back side of the light blade , that works well and is easy … and the plane flies better …
Aug 11, 2017, 03:22 PM
Registered User
Looks great, however it triggered a few questions:

Have you used this Green Guard before? Dow is nearly impossible to find and Corning is getting rare (don't like the pink color anyway). I looked at the green stuff and it looks about the same as the others but I've never used it. Any differences?

Did you airbrush the canopy? It looks good.

By film, do you mean the film that is already on the foam or another covering?
Aug 11, 2017, 04:35 PM
Registered User
Just hot glued some wheel pants on an gave her a test run. Seemed ever so slightly slower on rolls, probably due to a little more drag and possibly weight. Loops are still long and slow (although I can flip her over fast if I bottom out the elevator). But what I gained the most was in the landings. I landed three times and the prop did not jump off the prop saver on any of them. Without the wheel pants (or more correctly, the LG extension), the motor really is close to the ground. And yes, I do try to flop land rather than skid land.

It is really gusty here today and I continue to be impressed with this plane's wind handling. Local weather says wind speed is 10 MPH but I would not fly my other planes in these gusts. This one jumps around a little but stays on path.
Aug 11, 2017, 05:34 PM
gpw
gpw
“There’s no place like Foam”
gpw's Avatar
Fish , that GreenGuard is > 10 years old , we also have some original Blucor and some pink too … We stocked up years ago … All of them have a film attached , giving them a little more weight but lots of strength… ( the pink has one side film the other side not )
We’ve built many planes from these with good success.
The canopy is Sharpie markers , a first line of blue on the bottom and then some turquoise blended in , leaving the highlight as bare foam … Weighs almost nothing . And for determining the attitude , we left the original printing on the bottom .
Last edited by gpw; Aug 11, 2017 at 05:43 PM. Reason: the picture


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