TALES, DLG Contest for Non-Throwers - RC Groups
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Jul 22, 2017, 02:35 PM
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TALES, DLG Contest for Non-Throwers


In the spirit of transparency as most of you DLG guys have no idea who I am, I am a really an old guy that loves DLG but can not throw for physical reasons so at all of our club contests the other contestants are kind enough to rotate through and throw for me if they are not timing. This is just fine for me but not so great for the other guys as our contests are really kind good and at times quite competitive.

So one day after a rather brutal and hot contest day in 2016 with 8 rounds, Mike Wizynajtys off the cuff said why don't you come up with a contest that mashes ALES and DLG so you old guys can have a contest you can be competitive in without throwing to 200+ feet (all of us were worn out including the young guys). Well a few of us including some of the younger set said that would be a great idea and assigned me the task of coming up with a rules set and contest format. After a fair amount of discussion with both the ALES troops and the DLG troops a paper format was initiated and voted on at our year end party.

Fast forward to 2017.

So we have now have had two successful contests with 8 and 12 pilots of various skill levels and modified the rules after each contest to fine tune the original set of rules. Several of our guys fly the Bruce each year as well the Polecat and NATS DLG and ALES contests so they have a very good background in competitions of both types and sizes. I also have a background in rules development as the originator of the Nostalgia rules, member of the ALES rules committee and now Chairman of the Soaring Contest board so with this background I feel this rules set is good enough for publication for a year of so of trial in the in the field for anyone who want to give it a whirl.

Basically it is a DLG task oriented contest with 2M or less planes with motors and altitude switches. We get the fun of multiple tasks within a round like DLG and a somewhat level playing field of a common launch height like ALES. The name came from Roger Van Elslander and means "Task oriented ALES" because we all like chasing our TALES (thought I would say it here first). Mike Wiz wanted a max of 2M wingspan so Radians could play and to keep cost down (we'll see how that goes over time).

The TALES event rules will be posted on our club web site at http://gdshs.org/tales-event-rules.htm in a day or two and the TALES Scoring Program written by Curtis Suter is on his website and free to download at http://tailwindgliders.com/. The scoring program and the rules were developed in conjunction with one another and work very well. I will attempt to attach the rules as a file here.

The plan is to run the rules "as is" for a year or two at most and then send out a request for rules change proposals. After a vote on these proposals, I will submit it to AMA for an official vote. Opinions will only matter to me if you have flown or conducted a contest using the rules so I know that the comments are experience based.

So if you have questions, let me know as I have just subscribed to this forum and should get them or use the internal messenger.
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Jul 23, 2017, 04:43 AM
Registered User
Rudix's Avatar
This is a really interesting concept! I really like the DLG format but after a major back operation I can forget about ever throwing a plane like that again, this could be a chance to join in the fun!

Thanks for publishing your rules, now I need to see if I can get the local guys to bite, won't be easy as there is often a bit of "anti electric" sentiment from the older guys but maybe this time it would be different as they are exactly the guys who could take advantage from this.

We fly similar mixed TD(winch) and electric launch events, initially using 200m winch lines and 200m limited electric launch. After a few contests the winch guys started making noises that the electric guys should be limited to 150m (maybe we were doing too well?), no problem so now we run 150m launches and are still competitive, it is all about fun and getting more pilots involved.
Jul 23, 2017, 10:45 AM
God Created me to Create
The_Builder's Avatar
I really like that guys are starting to work on ways to include more people in this great activity. For a very long time it has been very narrow it's focus. For many years now it has been all about designing planes and organizing events that required large amounts of money and high launches to be competitive.

I originally started the Epee as a plane geared toward the casual fun pilot and it has grown to where 1M is becoming a viable competition/festival format. It is great to see you guys working towards including more people in other ways.

Keep pushing and developing ideas !! Last spring when I brought out the Epee people said 1M would never be a viable format. Then in the fall the ECHLGF worked in 1 day of 1M at their event and now this year there are two days of 1M competition.

It truly is thrilling to see all of this happening. The more people we can show this great activity to the bring into the flock the better it will be for all of us who love it so much.
Jul 23, 2017, 10:47 AM
God Created me to Create
The_Builder's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudix
This is a really interesting concept! I really like the DLG format but after a major back operation I can forget about ever throwing a plane like that again, this could be a chance to join in the fun!

Thanks for publishing your rules, now I need to see if I can get the local guys to bite, won't be easy as there is often a bit of "anti electric" sentiment from the older guys but maybe this time it would be different as they are exactly the guys who could take advantage from this.

We fly similar mixed TD(winch) and electric launch events, initially using 200m winch lines and 200m limited electric launch. After a few contests the winch guys started making noises that the electric guys should be limited to 150m (maybe we were doing too well?), no problem so now we run 150m launches and are still competitive, it is all about fun and getting more pilots involved.
I should have quoted you in the first place. Your last statement has been lost on many people in hand launch for a long time !!!
Jul 23, 2017, 02:51 PM
Adam
xStatiCa's Avatar
That sounds like fun for those with ALES ships.

I assume people will launch on a field like F3K? There are dangers in f3k if someone launches and has a problem and hits someone, but I wonder how much riskier it would be with people launching prop planes in all directions around you. With TD and ALES, I think people go to a designated area to launch away from people? I am sure you guys have thought about safety so I am curious about your thoughts along these lines. I have only flown a couple unlimited competitions so I am not even very experienced with TD, Unlimited, and ALES.

I do like the idea of normalizing launch heights. I wish there was some way to do that without motors. EDIT: That could probably be done if we had stabilization and on a certain altitude, the DLG levels off automatically and then disables stabilization.
Jul 23, 2017, 03:06 PM
God Created me to Create
The_Builder's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by xStatiCa
That sounds like fun for those with ALES ships.

I assume people will launch on a field like F3K? There are dangers in f3k if someone launches and has a problem and hits someone, but I wonder how much riskier it would be with people launching prop planes in all directions around you. With TD and ALES, I think people go to a designated area to launch away from people? I am sure you guys have thought about safety so I am curious about your thoughts along these lines. I have only flown a couple unlimited competitions so I am not even very experienced with TD, Unlimited, and ALES.

I do like the idea of normalizing launch heights. I wish there was some way to do that without motors. EDIT: That could probably be done if we had stabilization and on a certain altitude, the DLG levels off automatically and then disables stabilization.
I was timing for a Buddy who had his plane in the air when he was hit right near the eye by another pilot during his launch. I Am not sure which is more dangerous.
Jul 23, 2017, 03:24 PM
Adam
xStatiCa's Avatar
If I had a choice I think I would prefer a DLG launch hit me than an ALES carbon prop plane at full power takeoff. The speed of the ALES plane would be slower but that prop seems like it would result in much more damage.
Jul 23, 2017, 03:25 PM
Red Merle ALES VI
Curtis Suter's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by xStatiCa
I assume people will launch on a field like F3K? There are dangers in f3k if someone launches and has a problem and hits someone, but I wonder how much riskier it would be with people launching prop planes in all directions around you. With TD and ALES, I think people go to a designated area to launch away from people? I am sure you guys have thought about safety so I am curious about your thoughts along these lines. I have only flown a couple unlimited competitions so I am not even very experienced with TD, Unlimited, and ALES.
Here are the rules: http://gdshs.org/tales-event-rules.htm
See section 3 for how launch and landings will be orderly as is the norm for ALES and TD.

Curtis
Last edited by Curtis Suter; Jul 23, 2017 at 03:37 PM.
Jul 23, 2017, 03:54 PM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by xStatiCa
That sounds like fun for those with ALES ships.

I assume people will launch on a field like F3K? There are dangers in f3k if someone launches and has a problem and hits someone, but I wonder how much riskier it would be with people launching prop planes in all directions around you. With TD and ALES, I think people go to a designated area to launch away from people? I am sure you guys have thought about safety so I am curious about your thoughts along these lines. I have only flown a couple unlimited competitions so I am not even very experienced with TD, Unlimited, and ALES.

I do like the idea of normalizing launch heights. I wish there was some way to do that without motors. EDIT: That could probably be done if we had stabilization and on a certain altitude, the DLG levels off automatically and then disables stabilization.
Hi, I hope I can answer this question. There is no box to land in like DLG. Its much like your launching area for ALES. We lay out landing tape and this is your designated launching area. For safety reasons you cannot land your plane in another pilots launching area . There are no points for landing, so you can "land out" as far as you want. The only problem is that the farther you land out the more time it will take you to retrieve your plane before you can relaunch in the window if it is required, however I there is usually 1 or 2 minutes of extra time baked into each window so you don't have to worry too much about dropping times.

I made a time lapse video after the contest and you can see it in action on our facebook page here:

https://www.facebook.com/GDSHS/videos/782000191961807/

or youtube:

time lapse tales2 (5 min 47 sec)
Jul 24, 2017, 02:07 PM
God Created me to Create
The_Builder's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by xStatiCa
If I had a choice I think I would prefer a DLG launch hit me than an ALES carbon prop plane at full power takeoff. The speed of the ALES plane would be slower but that prop seems like it would result in much more damage.
Agreed, I was not thinking about the prop/blender on the front as much as the mass and speed of the plane. All in All I think I will duck in both cases....
Jul 24, 2017, 02:23 PM
Overkill is underrated
elac2az's Avatar
I like these TALES rules as a first draft and am happy to see there will come a vote to either accept as first written or modify before seeking AMA adoption. I might suggest Jack, that you consider setting a hard date to a first poll of the draft rules and the solicitation for changes. You mention the trial period "should last at least a year." Sounds good. So how about a firm start and end date? I think specificity will move this forward more effectively.

I'm wondering if the rules shouldn't have reflected the F5J low launch point reward vs the proposed fixed reward of points for selecting a 60m launch. It seems to me that the first permutation of TALES will be for clubs (especially mine) will be to fly their TALES contests with the F5J low launch point reward with the 3 pts/m penalty kicking in at something less than 200m...maybe 150m or even 125m. If TALES mimicked the F5J low launch reward, it would also serve as a better springboard to F5J as the mindset of a low launch component decided upon by the pilot at the moment of launch is instilled. Again, just thinking out loud.

I also notice that the TALES rules define a "Pilot's Area" and states that the pilot is to remain in the described 10m circle while their plane is airborne. I get where planes with props pose a hazard unlike DLG's but I think this inflexibility of movement is unnecessary if there is no points penalty for leaving the Pilot's Area...at least I couldn't find a stated penalty.

Finally, landing in an "unscheduled" Pilot's Area incurs no penalty? When have rules allowed a pilot to land at a tape or lane they didn't launch from? I think this is unwise and will only result in possible conflicts between 2 or more pilots who may attempt to land in an "unscheduled" landing circle because no one communicates their intentions. It could become a strategy element...but not in a good way. Requiring that pilots land in the circle they launch from only reinforces what is the norm in all other duration events but F3K, I believe.

Just want to be clear I am not wanting to appear to bash this GOOD event concept. I will gladly fly it if our club (EVEF) here in Phoenix decides to try it out.

-Ed
EVEF Prez'
AMA 290291
F5J-F3K-ALES pilot
Jul 24, 2017, 03:01 PM
Red Merle ALES VI
Curtis Suter's Avatar
Ed, you read the rules....Thanks for that!!
So if it were an F5J launch bonus how would you suggest scoring for say three or four launches in a 2,4,6 minute task?

Thanks
Curtis
Jul 24, 2017, 03:16 PM
Time for me to Fly...
Mr. Wiz's Avatar
The idea behind the circles is to try to keep people from inadvertently wandering into the path of another plane.... particularly one launching. So you can basically land wherever you want, except the circle of another pilot. If a circle is occupied and you slide a wingtip in there, you get penalized. If it's unoccupied,.... No harm, no foul. So far, it's worked. If we start having trouble with the rules, as written, we may modify them. And I would recommend we all just try them as they are now, rather than speculate about something that may or may not become a problem.

FWIW, I'm not an advocate for the 100m launch, it's too high too make the tasks DLG like, IMHO. And I'm also not a fan of the launch height bonus being held to a strict 60m for an entire round. If we're to have a launch bonus, I'd rather have it done exactly like F5J but the way the rules are now, scoring is simple and the equipment is simple and affordable too so I'm willing to live with it for awhile to see how it goes.

Since it was my goofy idea in the first place, I'm hoping it takes off. The more people/clubs fly it, the more input for improvements we'll get and the better this will be. Please just keep in mind that while being dirt cheap isn't a goal, keeping it reasonably affordable is. For instance, A club could choose to fly only stock Radians and modify the rules to suite that limitation. I don't find flying Radians to be enough fun to hold my attention but you get the idea.... Fun is what we're after.
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Jul 24, 2017, 05:57 PM
Registered User
Finally, landing in an "unscheduled" Pilot's Area incurs no penalty? When have rules allowed a pilot to land at a tape or lane they didn't launch from? I think this is unwise and will only result in possible conflicts between 2 or more pilots who may attempt to land in an "unscheduled" landing circle because no one communicates their intentions. It could become a strategy element...but not in a good way. Requiring that pilots land in the circle they launch from only reinforces what is the norm in all other duration events but F3K, I believe.


Sections 3.5 and 3.6 state a 100 point penalty for interference. We may need to specifically state a penalty for bad landings.
Jul 24, 2017, 09:59 PM
Overkill is underrated
elac2az's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curtis Suter
Ed, you read the rules....Thanks for that!!
So if it were an F5J launch bonus how would you suggest scoring for say three or four launches in a 2,4,6 minute task?

Thanks
Curtis
Let me first address the rules as written: the pilot either flies the default 100m launch cut-off for all three flights in a 2, 4, 6 minute task OR they select the 60m for 20 bonus points per flight and are stuck with their read of the conditions for the entire round if the air goes kaput. Though the rules don't state this, I am assuming that the pilot has to make the target time to earn the 20pt bonus...otherwise why wouldn't you always declare for the lower launch height?

Also, the option to launch to 60m means the pilot's plane has to be equipped with an Altis which allows the launch cut-off to be easily changed between a pilot's rounds- but you have to take the time to change it. Just having to change it means you have already read conditions beforehand and are convinced they will hold up until your round flies. And the conditions will need to remain consistent enough for you to have any hope of making all the tasks from 60m. I think we all know that conditions aren't likely to last long enough. So I suspect that the 60m option will quickly be ignored as it will prove to much a risk to making the target time. Making the target time is NUMERO UNO.

As to your original question Curtis... for an F5J launch bonus to work, where you have not one flight (like F5J) but multiple flights being made in a task window (like F3K), all the flights need a launch altitude recorded for scoring. So either the pilot must land- read and record the launch altitude from an Altis before their next flight OR the Altis records would have to be looked at on a laptop after the round to extract each of the launch heights. The laptop option sounds like a death blow to this concept. Not acceptable. So the question is could the pilot land, read off his launch altitude (timer records it) and relaunch in 30 seconds...? Maybe the task windows would need to be lengthened another minute to allow for this. And the Altis (to the best of my knowledge) is the only device suited to recording an altitude, then being relaunched and recording another altitude, and so on.

Not sure that my answer addresses all the elements of scoring Curtis, but first the idea of using an F5J launch height points system has to be found something worth trying inlight of what I pointed out regarding reading an Altis between relaunches in a multiple flight task.

-Ed


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