Flying Fox - Perfectly Balanced True-X for great performance! - RC Groups
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Jul 14, 2017, 07:33 AM
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Flying Fox - Perfectly Balanced True-X for great performance!


Check out the Flying Fox available to purchase here:
https://armattanproductions.com/pages/kit_detail/946

After the success of the Sugar Glider ( https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...romise-3-Micro ), and now that my flying skills have increased. I have designed the Flying Fox, a 5" frame that takes all the best bits from the Sugar Glider and scales them up into a perfectly balanced True-X frame that flies great and really goes exactly where you point it.


I have kept all the same features like the substantial camera protection and round arm ends so that expensive components like the Camera and Motors receive the maximum protection possible.
Because the 5" builds can handle it, and because everyone likes HD footage, I have integrated a GoPro mount into the camera guards that holds the GoPro at the same 35 nominal camera angle as the FPV cam. The FPV cam can be raised or lowered in angle from 20-65 to and still benefit from excellent protection, this is perfect for beginners and experienced pilots alike.
The cam guards not only stop the camera from being damaged if you run into something, but also stop the lens getting dirty in rollovers and prevent some of that gunk getting flicked off the props from getting on the lens.


There are two battery strap slots and the frame is designed so that when a GoPro is installed the battery is pushed backward and the rearward shift of the battery counteracts the added weight of the GoPro, maintaining the perfect balance of the quad and introducing as little change in flying characteristics as possible.
With a standoff height of 25mm the height of the top plate is the perfect compromise of making sure the centre of gravity is in the best place possible and making sure that in the event of a crash the battery can't slip sideways into the propellers.
Even when not running a HD cam, I use both battery straps and the battery always stays exactly where I put it.


The top mount battery and axial GoPro mounting position, mean the Centre of Gravity is perfectly inline with the props resulting in the most neutral balance and flying behavior possible. In short, by having excellent balance your motors are not compensating for poor component placement when flying but only reacting to inputs that you provide. This provides a quad that flies like its on rails, goes exactly where you point it, and is incredibly easy to tune.


4mm replaceable interlocking arms take an absolute beating but can be quickly changed out should you find yourself coming into contact with a stationary object at warp speed. The full round end on the arm is not the most weight efficient design, but provides the best protection for the motors and means there are no stress concentrating points that will snag or dig in, in the event of a crash.
Being a full round also means that impacts are spread over a larger area and this prevents the delaminated and split ends that are all to often seen in frames where this is not considered.


A couple of pilots have been pretesting the frame with me, and based on their feedback I have integrated some design changes to make sure that the Fox is as dialled and ready as possible before making it available to purchase, there are a couple of changes to the frame that have been integrated since the photos above have been taken:

- Camera angle fastening slots to suit both Runcam and Foxeer style cameras have been added to the camera guard sideplates.
- The opening in the sideplates for the FC has been enlarged front to back to allow for easier mounting of FC's with integrated PDB's and 4in1 ESC's.
- There have been more openings added in the sideplates to make cable routing easier if your PDB is designed for front to back wiring layout.

Overall the Fox is designed to be the best handling all rounder frame possible, concentrating on being tough and resilient and providing the best and most flexible flying experience possible. It can happily be raced just as much as taken up in the air and freestyled, I prefer to have one quad that can do everything well rather than something that is specifically specialised toward one genre of flying whether that is racing or freestyle.

Bonus Pics:









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Jul 14, 2017, 03:37 PM
I <3 Windy Days
adamkerrnz's Avatar
Here's a bit of a photo dump of my build.
Parts list:

DYS F4 FC/PDB combo (reason for side plate adjustments to allow more clearance for fc and pdb tabs that stick out)
Racerstar 20a lite esc
Racerstar BR2205 2300kv motors
TBS Unify pro
Frsky XSR

Build was very simple with no instructions used on my part, everything was logical and it almost fell together. Only part that needs filing was the rear lower slot for the vtx antenna mount. But this may have been fixed in newer cuts of the frame (it was a CNC quirk rather than a design flaw)

Wire routing should also have been improved with the quad now. With more room in the side plates for getting esc wires out to the arms.

As of now just a hover test done. I still need to sort out side plate clearance (on this pre production model) as i prompted the redesign to allow fitment of the DYS board (and similar fc) and attach my vtx and rx more solidly before RIPPING BALLS!

Cheers,
Adam.








Jul 14, 2017, 04:43 PM
Registered User
Capt R Kitter's Avatar
My you have thick arms.

Just ordered two frames.
Jul 15, 2017, 01:29 AM
Registered User
Here's some footage from our last weekend flying. I don't own a GoPro so almost never record HD. However while flying my mate broke his GoPro quad so I threw it on mine and took up duty as film crew.
I didn't touch the tune, in fact this is all stock PIDs and stock filters, I just haven't had time to do any tuning on this yet, I think it needs a lil 'I' on both pitch and roll but other than that it flies soo sweet. Being that it's a borrowed GoPro i took it easy on the freestyle but even in the crashes I had racing the GoPro didn't move. A few people on facebook have asked about the Battery mounting with the GoPro and the render above doesn't show it that well, so I'll try get a photo at this mornings meetup of the GoPro on there with the Acehe 1500mah.

Jul 15, 2017, 01:31 AM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt R Kitter
My you have thick arms.

Just ordered two frames.
Awesome! Nice one Capt, as always throw up some pics when you get into the build, and if you have any thoughts on the frame let me know if there's anything that I can adjust to make it even better I'll take care of it.
Jul 15, 2017, 01:35 AM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamkerrnz
Here's a bit of a photo dump of my build.
Parts list:

DYS F4 FC/PDB combo (reason for side plate adjustments to allow more clearance for fc and pdb tabs that stick out)
Racerstar 20a lite esc
Racerstar BR2205 2300kv motors
TBS Unify pro
Frsky XSR

Build was very simple with no instructions used on my part, everything was logical and it almost fell together. Only part that needs filing was the rear lower slot for the vtx antenna mount. But this may have been fixed in newer cuts of the frame (it was a CNC quirk rather than a design flaw)

Wire routing should also have been improved with the quad now. With more room in the side plates for getting esc wires out to the arms.

As of now just a hover test done. I still need to sort out side plate clearance (on this pre production model) as i prompted the redesign to allow fitment of the DYS board (and similar fc) and attach my vtx and rx more solidly before RIPPING BALLS!

Cheers,
Adam.
Nice one dude, I found that there was a weird lil thing in my DXF for the midplate that was causing that little bit to stick out, so that's taken care of with the updated parts. Thanks for the help and feedback. Now hurry up and fly the thing properly!
Jul 17, 2017, 11:14 AM
Registered User
Here is my Fox, I have to say I wasn't sure I would fly it much but wanted to test it since I had gear to throw on it right away. My old gear didn't work out too good, I had a short somewhere that dropped me out of the sky a few times so I ordered all new hardware.

Here is my parts list:
EMAX Magnum AIO stack
Frsky XM+ RX
EMAX VTX
EMAX Bullet 30A 4-in-1 ESC
EMAX 2306 2400kv motors
Runcam Swift 2
TBS Triumph
Indestructible Quads Gold Label 4S HV 1500
Props
EMAX Avan R5.65 x3
Gemfan 5152 x3
KingKong 5040x3
BF settings
Default PIDS
yaw_direction -1
d_lowpass_type=PT1
Gyro Notch Filter 1 set to 0
Gyro Notch Filter 2 set to 0
I am loving the Fox I think I'll call it the Fantastic Mr Fox. I started off with the 3S batteries I have for my SG. Turnigy Graphene 45C 800's and Hyperion Graphene 70C 1100's. I had to take it easy on the 800's but the 1100's did fine. The Avan props were super quiet on 3S more like a fan whoosh sound with no high pitch whine very neighbor friendly. It flew great on 3S but I couldn't find any 1300 or 1500's in the dimensions I wanted so I got some Gold Label 4s HV 1500's from Indestructible Quads. I am only running them on standard voltage for now. 4s power is nuts. I'm flying under 50% throttle most of the time and can only punch out for a second or so. I fly mostly around my house so very low to the ground and thankful the SG taught me good throttle control.

Couple thought on my parts with the frame:
Magnum stack.
I chose this even though it was very new and not many people tested it yet. It made it easy to not have to decide on my own what parts to get even though I don't really like 4-in-1 ESC's I have had such good experience with EMAX products I gave it a try. Also all the components are modular so if the VTX dies I can remove it and replace it easily and the same with the other parts. Some people are having issues with the ESC causing multiple motors to twitch when testing in BLheli and in the air. Mine twitch in BLheli but not in the air. This thing flies like its on rails set to PT1 and the notch filters disabled and I am not soft mounting.
I did chop one of the sideplates to clear the VTX on the stack. I did this out of pure laziness. I could have used different standoffs or even taken the VTX off the stack, but I wanted to get in the air ASAP. I had no issues in any crashes but I don't recommend this.

2306 24000kv and props
I figured this would not be a light build so I chose the 2400kv over the 2750's. Plus I knew I would already be making a big jump in amp draw. I really like these motors, they are amazing with Avan props. I really like them on 3S since they are so quiet for flying around my house and not bugging the neighbors, but they come alive on 4S but the whoosh goes away and the higher pitched whine comes in. They do seem perfectly matched with the power curve of the motors. They are a good balance for performance and efficiency. The Gemfans are great too, they are a little bit more efficient but have a "lump" in thrust at the lower end of the throttle. This keeps your throttle control on point when flying low and under things as a slight blip in throttle increases your altitude suddenly. The King Kongs are just good bang for the buck props. But they don't do well in windy conditions. I'm sticking with the Avans and Gemfans but will test some Dal Cylcones and other props as they come out.

BF settings
yaw_direction -1 this sets the reverse motor rotation in one command. I have no idea if it affects flight characteristics but it does keep the cam lens clean... But now your sideplates and stack catch all the debris. One of these days I'll fix the heat sensor my 3D printer and print a USB plug but I haven't had issues yet.
d_lowpass_type=PT1 check out Bardwell's video on getting rid on propwash oscillations. There is seriously no reason not to at least do this step. If you cant run PT1 without your motors getting too hot then softmount everything until you can. Being able to dive and turn with no wobbling is awesome. With the Avan and Gemfans I bet I'm am 99.99% oscillation free and with the King Kongs like 98%.
Notch filter 1 & 2 I have stopped at 1&2 because both my SG and Fox are fine there and I don't feel the need to try the last filter, heck I don't even really need these two filters off.

I didn't take many pictures of my build as I was super busy with work and wanted to get in the air fast. But I'll post more when the revised parts come in.

I did finally break an arm which is funny because I wanted a solid baseplate and still do. I was doing power loops on a windy day with the king kongs. I was having fun doing drifting or sliding turns. Well one of my power loops became an oval as I didn't get off the throttle and waited too long to rotate. All 500g hit the ground on one arm from ~30ft up and it snapped. If I was smart I would have ordered spare arms and been back in the air in 5 minutes. But now I have a whole frame on the way and will have 3 spare arms. I am very happy no components were damaged in the slightest. Again this was a monster hit that even slightly bent a standoff but my motors and everything else was fine.

So order a spare arm or two and have a blast this frame is great!
Jul 17, 2017, 04:14 PM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by pkvillager
Here is my Fox, I have to say I wasn't sure I would fly it much but wanted to test it since I had gear to throw on it right away. My old gear didn't work out too good, I had a short somewhere that dropped me out of the sky a few times so I ordered all new hardware.

Here is my parts list:
EMAX Magnum AIO stack
Frsky XM+ RX
EMAX VTX
EMAX Bullet 30A 4-in-1 ESC
EMAX 2306 2400kv motors
Runcam Swift 2
TBS Triumph
Indestructible Quads Gold Label 4S HV 1500
Props
EMAX Avan R5.65 x3
Gemfan 5152 x3
KingKong 5040x3
BF settings
Default PIDS
yaw_direction -1
d_lowpass_type=PT1
Gyro Notch Filter 1 set to 0
Gyro Notch Filter 2 set to 0
I am loving the Fox I think I'll call it the Fantastic Mr Fox. I started off with the 3S batteries I have for my SG. Turnigy Graphene 45C 800's and Hyperion Graphene 70C 1100's. I had to take it easy on the 800's but the 1100's did fine. The Avan props were super quiet on 3S more like a fan whoosh sound with no high pitch whine very neighbor friendly. It flew great on 3S but I couldn't find any 1300 or 1500's in the dimensions I wanted so I got some Gold Label 4s HV 1500's from Indestructible Quads. I am only running them on standard voltage for now. 4s power is nuts. I'm flying under 50% throttle most of the time and can only punch out for a second or so. I fly mostly around my house so very low to the ground and thankful the SG taught me good throttle control.

Couple thought on my parts with the frame:
Magnum stack.
I chose this even though it was very new and not many people tested it yet. It made it easy to not have to decide on my own what parts to get even though I don't really like 4-in-1 ESC's I have had such good experience with EMAX products I gave it a try. Also all the components are modular so if the VTX dies I can remove it and replace it easily and the same with the other parts. Some people are having issues with the ESC causing multiple motors to twitch when testing in BLheli and in the air. Mine twitch in BLheli but not in the air. This thing flies like its on rails set to PT1 and the notch filters disabled and I am not soft mounting.
I did chop one of the sideplates to clear the VTX on the stack. I did this out of pure laziness. I could have used different standoffs or even taken the VTX off the stack, but I wanted to get in the air ASAP. I had no issues in any crashes but I don't recommend this.

2306 24000kv and props
I figured this would not be a light build so I chose the 2400kv over the 2750's. Plus I knew I would already be making a big jump in amp draw. I really like these motors, they are amazing with Avan props. I really like them on 3S since they are so quiet for flying around my house and not bugging the neighbors, but they come alive on 4S but the whoosh goes away and the higher pitched whine comes in. They do seem perfectly matched with the power curve of the motors. They are a good balance for performance and efficiency. The Gemfans are great too, they are a little bit more efficient but have a "lump" in thrust at the lower end of the throttle. This keeps your throttle control on point when flying low and under things as a slight blip in throttle increases your altitude suddenly. The King Kongs are just good bang for the buck props. But they don't do well in windy conditions. I'm sticking with the Avans and Gemfans but will test some Dal Cylcones and other props as they come out.

BF settings
yaw_direction -1 this sets the reverse motor rotation in one command. I have no idea if it affects flight characteristics but it does keep the cam lens clean... But now your sideplates and stack catch all the debris. One of these days I'll fix the heat sensor my 3D printer and print a USB plug but I haven't had issues yet.
d_lowpass_type=PT1 check out Bardwell's video on getting rid on propwash oscillations. There is seriously no reason not to at least do this step. If you cant run PT1 without your motors getting too hot then softmount everything until you can. Being able to dive and turn with no wobbling is awesome. With the Avan and Gemfans I bet I'm am 99.99% oscillation free and with the King Kongs like 98%.
Notch filter 1 & 2 I have stopped at 1&2 because both my SG and Fox are fine there and I don't feel the need to try the last filter, heck I don't even really need these two filters off.

I didn't take many pictures of my build as I was super busy with work and wanted to get in the air fast. But I'll post more when the revised parts come in.

I did finally break an arm which is funny because I wanted a solid baseplate and still do. I was doing power loops on a windy day with the king kongs. I was having fun doing drifting or sliding turns. Well one of my power loops became an oval as I didn't get off the throttle and waited too long to rotate. All 500g hit the ground on one arm from ~30ft up and it snapped. If I was smart I would have ordered spare arms and been back in the air in 5 minutes. But now I have a whole frame on the way and will have 3 spare arms. I am very happy no components were damaged in the slightest. Again this was a monster hit that even slightly bent a standoff but my motors and everything else was fine.

So order a spare arm or two and have a blast this frame is great!
Awesome detailed write up, thanks PK and thanks for the feedback along the way! Hope that new frame gets out to you in a timely fashion.

I've been giving mine death, and have had some really decent crashes and no damage yet.

I managed to get stuck pretty high up in trees a couple of times at this weekends meet ie, 8-10m up and unfortunately straight fell to the ground on the way out, again no damage.
I did later find that a couple of my standoffs stripped from what I assumed must have been downward forces on the arms, I'm not entirely sure when this actually happened. all the carbon parts are still in absolutely mint condition so I believe the 4-5mm of screw thread into the aluminium isn't enough to cope with the leverage forces generated by the arms during crashes.
In light of this I have modified the kit to include 20mm screws to go through the tie plate, arms, midplate and into the standoff this will give the screws much better purchase in the aluminium and should prevent the issue from happening again.

You guys that already have the frame may want to track down some m3x20 screws and switch out the existing m3x16's, but it's probably only necessary if you are flying pretty hard. Learning to race with a competitive group of guys means i'm finding the edge of my piloting skill pretty regularly

Interesting to hear that you are running reverse prop direction on this frame too PK. I might have to give it a go to compare. It certainly doesn't require it like the Sugar Glider does, but it also shouldn't hurt flying characteristics in any way.
Jul 19, 2017, 04:32 PM
Registered User

Use 16mm screws.


Right, so I mentioned the stripping standoffs in the last post, turns out I used the 16mm screws from the kit to mount the FC and only used the 12mm screws into the standoffs, no wonder they stripped out with 4mm of engagement into aluminium.
Unfortunately I only found this out when I ordered 50x 20mm screws and went to fit them and they wouldn't thread all the way in! Turns out the armattan standoffs aren't completely through threaded. Luckilly I also ordered 16mm screws so the fox is now securely screwed together again.

So depending on how you mount your FC, (I used 16mm screws to go through the arms and plates, then through the PDB and secure the FC standoffs above that.) will dictate which screws you need, so I have doubled the quantity of 16mm screws in the kit so that you can use them for both the standoffs and the FC if mounting through a PDB, or you can use the included 12mm screws if just mounting a FC.

Use the 16mm screws for the standoffs though, any less and there's not enough engagement to keep them secure.

For those that are interested about the go pro mounting here's a couple real life pics:





Balance with both battery and GoPro installed, its about 3-4mm balanced rearward from perfectly centred, that's with a 1500mah battery, if you use 1300's you can move the battery around a lil and get it spot on. The handling of this quad is unreal.

Jul 28, 2017, 12:19 AM
Registered User
Capt R Kitter's Avatar
Can anyone suggest some FC alternatives to the Emax Stack and DYS for the Fox. It seems that the Emax 4n1 ESC has a high failure rate and the DYS isn't playing nice for a lot of people. I'm still new to this and I'd rather avoid hardware issues.

So far the only components that I've collected for the Fox are the BH T2 2206 2300kV motors and they aren't written in stone. Might want to use them on a hex build. I was considering Emax Bullet 30A ESCs but, they are hard to find right now. Any hardware suggestions are welcomed.
Jul 28, 2017, 02:19 AM
Registered User
Hey capt'

Im using the Matek F4 with the sperate pdb and love it, its super smooth to fly. They have juat released the Matek F4 AIO which has the pdb built into the single board, this would be perfect for the fox, it also has the xt60 out the side of the board which lines up with the narrow waist in the top plate. I had to rotate the PDB 90 on mine to achieve this, and thats not easy with the ribbon cable. But yeah ive been really impressed with the quality of the board, and it has all the features including OSD etc.

Im running emax bullet 35a on my build, only because i got them cheap, but ive really enjoyed them soo far. I did knock one cap off of one due to propstrike, but the blades i run are way more flexible than they should be, ive just got to finish the stock ive got then im going for the 5x4.3x3 v1s. They seem to be a great blade.

I like the emax bullets but they dont support dshot, but then again i run multishot on all my builds, its a bit more robust and reliable i think.

Hopefully someone else can chime in with a reccomendation, up untill now ive always used little bee pros and theyve never let me down, but they are pretty long in the tooth now but yeah anything over 20a will be fine id think.
Jul 28, 2017, 12:36 PM
Registered User
I see lots of interest in the Matek F4 AIO and Id like to try the Kakute F4 AIO. I really like the idea of a soft mounted gryo.

I like my Emax 2306 2400's but I think they are amp hogs for my needs. When I kill them I'm going to RG 7075 series 2206 since I have been so happy with their 1407's I'm hoping I get the same performance with much better efficiency.

I don't understand why the bullet 35A don't support DHSOT... I wonder if it is a typo. I mean I cant tell the difference between multishot or dhsot but it doesn't make sense that only the 35a wouldn't support it.

Armattan took longer on this order. I just got notification its leaving China tomorrow so I'm thinking I wont have my updated frame for another week and a half
Jul 29, 2017, 02:27 AM
Registered User
Capt R Kitter's Avatar
Thanks, Guys. I checked out the Matek F4 AIO and it looks interesting. The vibration damping makes sense on a 36mm FCs with real estate to spare when compared to the smaller FCs. I'll check out the Kakute FC and RG motors as well. Will probably go with Bullet 30A ESCs again to keep the spares inventory down. Have them on the SG and they are still working good after a lot of abuse.
Aug 03, 2017, 03:38 AM
Registered User
Capt R Kitter's Avatar
Received notice of shipment yesterday from AP. Also, placed orders today for the Matek F405 AIO and the Aikon SEFM 30amp 4-in-1 ESC that will drive the Tornando T2 2206/2300 motors that I already have. The FC looks like a no brainier for the most part. Hope the 4 in 1 ESC was a good choice.
Last edited by Capt R Kitter; Aug 03, 2017 at 08:48 AM.
Aug 03, 2017, 03:53 AM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt R Kitter
Received notice of shipment yesterday from AP. Placed orders today for the Matek F405 AIO and the Aikon SEFM 30amp 4-in-1 ESC that will drive the Tornando T2 2206/2300 motors that I already have. The FC looks like a no brainier for the most part. Hope the 4 in 1 ESC was a good choice.
Awesome dude, keen to see the build, using the 4in1 should keep it super clean, ive never used 4in1 esc's but I think I have heard pretty good things about the Aikons. The tornados should be really nice on the frame, everyone thats flown it so far has commented how smooth it is and I think those motors are known for being pretty smooth aswell.


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