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Jun 23, 2017, 06:34 PM
Registered User
Thread OP
Discussion

Alternative material to PLA


Now I've got one of the 3Dlabprint models printed and like it, I'm considering trying it in a different material.

I printed the P47 tail assy in stright petg and it came up pretty well, but was much more flexible as others have noted.

As I'm in Australia I'd really like to do another in a material that doesn't droop just from sitting outdoors in the sun. Fair enough no model's going to benefit from being in a hot car, but I'd just like to use a material with some heat resistance.

I got to reading up on carbon fiber infused filaments, and found an article that implied that ABS and PLA with CF in it was actually more brittle and weaker, despite being more rigid. It went on to say that petg and nylon with CF was a better option.

Nylon has a degree of difficulty with moisture absorbtion and warping, but the petg got some good reviews.

https://www.3dxtech.com/carbonx-carb...ting-filament/

Interestingly, when I contacted these guys above ad showed them a link to the 3dpl site, they recommended ASA filament, but it may have been because I talked more about UV/heat resistance. The reviews on ASA suggested it warped similar to ABS.

These guys haven't answered me yet, but similar product:

https://atomicfilament.com/products/...nt=26891393281

Guy in Australia, but I have had trouble with his filament in the past being too big a diameter and jamming. That was HIPS filament though, given the price I'd probably try this one.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/3D-printe...8AAOSwRUhY9tNK

I'm aware of the need for a hardened nozzle, and have some plated one's here I can use.

I'll also try a sample print in some good quality ABS and an ASA sample I have here, just to see how it goes.

Let's compare notes/settings/results from those who have tried other materials?
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Jun 24, 2017, 12:53 AM
Registered User
Rudix's Avatar
I have printed some pieces of my PT 17, engine and landing gear, with eSun ABS+, it prints very similar to PLA you just need to run higher bed and nozzle temps, and it does not seem to warp like ABS and sticks to the bed no problem.

The resulting part are very strong and have a nice smooth surface. I only have white and black at the moment so it is not suitable for my current print but I will print a test wing piece to see how it works on the thin wall bits.

I run the nozzle at 250C and the bed at 90C.
Jun 24, 2017, 01:18 AM
Registered User
Thread OP
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudix
I have printed some pieces of my PT 17, engine and landing gear, with eSun ABS+, it prints very similar to PLA you just need to run higher bed and nozzle temps, and it does not seem to warp like ABS and sticks to the bed no problem.

The resulting part are very strong and have a nice smooth surface. I only have white and black at the moment so it is not suitable for my current print but I will print a test wing piece to see how it works on the thin wall bits.

I run the nozzle at 250C and the bed at 90C.
Mate that's awesome!

We've got it here in Oz for around 25 bucks a kilo too, in lots of colors, and the reviews are good. I'd never heard of it.

I'll give it a try for sure.
Jun 24, 2017, 08:32 AM
Destroyer of airframes
RTRyder's Avatar
I've printed most of the Stearman in ABS. I took the back half of the fuselage to the field with me last week and left it sitting in direct sun for the entire time I was there. As far as I can tell the sun had zero effect on it just sitting there without shade on a 90 degree day. In the past I printed landing legs for multirotors in PLA and had them soften and sag in a similar situation of just sitting in direct sun on a hot day.

One thing I like about ABS over most of the alternatives is it has the lowest density per cubic cm at 1.04 grams. PLA and PetG weigh in about 20% heavier at approximately 1.25 to 1.29 grams/cm3 so you can actually print the walls a bit thicker with ABS and still come in around the same weight as printing thinner walls with PLA.

That said, to properly print these pieces in ABS takes a lot more control of the print process than many desktop printers are capable of. Since my job is R & D and rapid prototyping I have a commercial grade printer with heated and insulated build chamber plus water cooled steppers and hotend barrels for extremely precise temperature control of the build environment, multi hour ABS prints can be done with zero warping.

Probably more important when using ABS is knowing what the base resins are and what settings it prints best with. I also have in house filament extrusion capability used to make 90% of the filament I print with. Having control of the filament making process yields far more consistent print results since I know exactly what the filament diameter is across the entire roll as well as knowing what pellets were used to make the filament so once dialed in my print settings rarely change.

My only issue with getting the plane finished and in the air is that print jobs for work take priority over printing airplane parts so being as busy as I am right now there hasn't been much free printer time to finish the project. Ultimately I want to print the same plane in at least two, maybe three, different materials to test durability and overall quality of flight, might have to schedule a "vacation" just to get the printer time to finish what's already started and possibly get a second one done.
Jun 24, 2017, 09:40 AM
Registered User

Tried hotter temperatures?


Have you tried hotter temperatures? They can give stronger and stiffer prints in PLA and PETG prints..
- Just changing temp a few degrees can make a noticeable difference, because sometimes the recommended temp that I've been printing in is a sort of sweet spot for flexibility.
- Going real hot, like 230-250, has resulted in my strongest and stiffest prints. Its hot enough that I get little brown marks in my white prints and I need to ventilate as if I was printing with ABS.
Jun 24, 2017, 10:32 AM
Retired CAD guy
birdofplay's Avatar
Re Brown spots and streaks:

Make sure your HOT END is tight or you may experience LEAKING
which will eventually run down around the exit hole.
That leakage will have been there for some time and gotten Burned/Brown.
Tightening up MINE stopped that effect !
Jun 24, 2017, 04:53 PM
Registered User
Thread OP
I'm not having issues with the parts not being strong enough in PLA, and have my temps as hot as I can go without major stringing issues.

I'm looking for a material that's more heat resistant when completed.

I'm getting some beautiful thin wall prints in a ABS at the moment, but just not sticking to the bed as well as I'd like.

I'm using a "Printbite" surface, and my firmware was limiting the bed temp below what they recommend for ABS, but I've got that sorted now and will try again.
Jun 24, 2017, 08:44 PM
OCD
Wright's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by RTRyder
I've printed most of the Stearman in ABS.

That said, to properly print these pieces in ABS takes a lot more control of the print process than many desktop printers are capable of. Since my job is R & D and rapid prototyping I have a commercial grade printer with heated and insulated build chamber plus water cooled steppers and hotend barrels for extremely precise temperature control of the build environment, multi hour ABS prints can be done with zero warping.

Probably more important when using ABS is knowing what the base resins are and what settings it prints best with. I also have in house filament extrusion capability used to make 90% of the filament I print with. Having control of the filament making process yields far more consistent print results since I know exactly what the filament diameter is across the entire roll as well as knowing what pellets were used to make the filament so once dialed in my print settings rarely change..
Good info you told us. Thanks.

Which high end printer are you using. Just like to know about the high end printers. We are looking for for one at work.

Also, have you tried any SLA or CLIP from Carbon3D.
Jun 24, 2017, 10:55 PM
Internet Pilot
fATAL's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ozquad
Now I've got one of the 3Dlabprint models printed and like it, I'm considering trying it in a different material.

I printed the P47 tail assy in stright petg and it came up pretty well, but was much more flexible as others have noted.

As I'm in Australia I'd really like to do another in a material that doesn't droop just from sitting outdoors in the sun. Fair enough no model's going to benefit from being in a hot car, but I'd just like to use a material with some heat resistance.

I got to reading up on carbon fiber infused filaments, and found an article that implied that ABS and PLA with CF in it was actually more brittle and weaker, despite being more rigid. It went on to say that petg and nylon with CF was a better option.

Nylon has a degree of difficulty with moisture absorbtion and warping, but the petg got some good reviews.

https://www.3dxtech.com/carbonx-carb...ting-filament/

Interestingly, when I contacted these guys above ad showed them a link to the 3dpl site, they recommended ASA filament, but it may have been because I talked more about UV/heat resistance. The reviews on ASA suggested it warped similar to ABS.

These guys haven't answered me yet, but similar product:

https://atomicfilament.com/products/...nt=26891393281

Guy in Australia, but I have had trouble with his filament in the past being too big a diameter and jamming. That was HIPS filament though, given the price I'd probably try this one.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/3D-printe...8AAOSwRUhY9tNK

I'm aware of the need for a hardened nozzle, and have some plated one's here I can use.

I'll also try a sample print in some good quality ABS and an ASA sample I have here, just to see how it goes.

Let's compare notes/settings/results from those who have tried other materials?
If you can afford ASA... you dont need our advice, P.S. I am talking about that real pro printer ASA.
Jun 25, 2017, 08:16 PM
Destroyer of airframes
RTRyder's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wright
Good info you told us. Thanks.

Which high end printer are you using. Just like to know about the high end printers. We are looking for for one at work.

Also, have you tried any SLA or CLIP from Carbon3D.
I have one of these... https://aon3d.com/ it's actually a fairly low end printer when compared against a Stratasys Fortus or Dimension, at least in terms of cost to own and operate. I'd say it compares favorably to the new line Stratasys recently released, the F123 series. Base price for the Aon is $16,950 USD, add a few borosilicate build plates, PEI sheets to cover them, and a few other assorted odds and ends and you're well on the way to over $18K with shipping.

On the other hand I don't know of any other commercial grade printers with a 45cm x 45cm x 65cm (18 inch x 18 inch x 24 inch) build volume that can be had for that price. Most of the big name units that size will cost at least 4 to 5 times as much and they lock you into proprietary materials like closed filament cartridges with smart electronics that prevent refilling and cost a few hundred $ per cartridge.

Haven't used any SLA for a couple reasons, one the very limited build volume that any of the "affordable" units have, and second the resulting prints really aren't very durable. A lot of what I print sees hard use and often several iterations in prototypes before finalizing the design so durability of the printed parts is typically #1 priority, it's a heck of a lot cheaper than farming out small batch CNC machining when you don't yet own a CNC mill!
Jul 01, 2017, 09:04 PM
"Spark Chaser"
jokeane's Avatar

Has anyone tried PETG?


I've had good success printing ESUN PETG for other projects. Just wondering if anyone has tried it for the 3D Lab Print planes.
Jul 04, 2017, 12:55 PM
Registered User
Hatchbox PETG has been great for me for non-RC projects but I haven't invested the time to find a good adhesive for it to bond to itself and to EPP.

Fresh cyanoacrylate works for PETG-PETG but not sure the bond is strong enough for RC applications

PVC cement/solvent is theoretically the way to go but the use-and-toss cans are such a pain for small projects - need something in a resealable tube

Any common RC adhesives that have worked for you guys for PETG-PETG or PETG-EPP bonding?
Latest blog entry: LED powered from the Rx
Jul 04, 2017, 01:24 PM
Staying away from trees..
markag's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by RTRyder
I have one of these... https://aon3d.com/ it's actually a fairly low end printer when compared against a Stratasys Fortus or Dimension, at least in terms of cost to own and operate. I'd say it compares favorably to the new line Stratasys recently released, the F123 series. Base price for the Aon is $16,950 USD, add a few borosilicate build plates, PEI sheets to cover them, and a few other assorted odds and ends and you're well on the way to over $18K with shipping.

On the other hand I don't know of any other commercial grade printers with a 45cm x 45cm x 65cm (18 inch x 18 inch x 24 inch) build volume that can be had for that price. Most of the big name units that size will cost at least 4 to 5 times as much and they lock you into proprietary materials like closed filament cartridges with smart electronics that prevent refilling and cost a few hundred $ per cartridge.

Haven't used any SLA for a couple reasons, one the very limited build volume that any of the "affordable" units have, and second the resulting prints really aren't very durable. A lot of what I print sees hard use and often several iterations in prototypes before finalizing the design so durability of the printed parts is typically #1 priority, it's a heck of a lot cheaper than farming out small batch CNC machining when you don't yet own a CNC mill!
If you want a larger print volume in an industrial price range, 3D Platform makes large format printers for relatively decent prices.

https://3dplatform.com/3d-printers/

We have one at work that has 1m x 1m x 500mm build area, and I think it was around $30K. It does not lock you into proprietary filament or software.
Jul 05, 2017, 06:59 PM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by ozquad
Now I've got one of the 3Dlabprint models printed and like it, I'm considering trying it in a different material.
Interestingly, when I contacted these guys above ad showed them a link to the 3dpl site, they recommended ASA filament, but it may have been because I talked more about UV/heat resistance. The reviews on ASA suggested it warped similar to ABS.
I just ordered a roll of ASA from 3dxtech today. Sick of worrying about whether my planes are going to warp in the heat. Hopefully they'll be a little more resilient with ASA as well.
Jan 25, 2018, 10:28 AM
Registered User
Just reviving this thread to ask about PLA Plus. I have seen some eSun (also called Sunlu) filament which says better than standard PLA and close to ABS for results.
One thing I can't find is whether the PLA Plus has better resistance to sun and temperature, normally 60c for PLA to go soft.
Just about to set up my printer and will be ordering 3DLab plane soon, I would like to order filament and do a few practice parts while I am waiting.


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