Thread Tools
This thread is privately moderated by epoxyearl, who may elect to delete unwanted replies.
Jun 09, 2017, 07:47 PM
Bellanca Kruesair
epoxyearl's Avatar
Thread OP
Discussion

Who foots the bill ?


Let's imagine that enough people become aware of AMA's profitability from selling non-existent insurance that they join the newest fliers in not filling out AMA's membership application.. The FAA seems to think about 100,000 people are flying Uas's under their guidelines that don't belong to any Community Based Organization. -I'm aware that there's a 'stay' on that, but it won't last long-

Now , when the FAA digs in and plants their feet firmly, there'll be a new set of (laws, rules, suggestions, recommendations) that will put us in a pinch..
Do y'all remember the closing of all the fields within 15 miles of D.C. when this first started ? I'll bet that happens again...
Now if the AMA , in their great fight to stop this foolishness, fails to corral the FAA, what would be the wisdom of continuing to fund them ?

The 'outlaw' Uas fliers now, are enjoying the freedom from rules imposed that always contain reminders of what could happen if a Uas runs amuck..- these guys are flying their hearts out, not hurting anyone, and they aren't hearing 'doomsday' reports from an Organization bent on showing just how unsafe flying can be.

But that will be sorted out next year...

MY question is, if the AMA fails to meet the mortgage payments at Tajmuncie, will the remaining members be responsible for that?
The Ama won't produce a Financial report, because (I believe) the membership is steadily dropping, or they're demanding answers as to why the AMA isn't on top of this and the minutes, which should be available in a timely manner.

I'm just rambling on here, because things we didn't think would happen, are happening now.. Sears is going out of business, and since they own K-mart, several locations of K-mart stores are closing as well.
I'm well aware the big box stores will just trade one for another....but if the AMA goes bust......................who's gonna step up ?
Latest blog entry: Ban Birds.
Sign up now
to remove ads between posts
Jun 10, 2017, 03:26 AM
Aka: Tom Jenkins
ApexAero's Avatar
Sears got started by purchasing an unclaimed box of watches and did the mail order way before the internet that George Bush invented.
I take it you are not an AMA member?
Jun 10, 2017, 06:04 AM
Bellanca Kruesair
epoxyearl's Avatar
Thread OP
Quote:
Originally Posted by ApexAero
Sears got started by purchasing an unclaimed box of watches and did the mail order way before the internet that George Bush invented.
I take it you are not an AMA member?
I am a disgruntled AMA member, through the end of this year. I've been an off and on member for 40 years. The only reason I've ever joined the AMA was because I was forced to by people who demanded the non-existent insurance in order to fly at their field . I've never had a bodily injury or property damage claim. I'm tired of the lies, and I'm concerned for the members that won't ask hard questions of the AMA.

The AMA is being 'Audited' and they can't post a financial report ? Does the IRS have the ONLY report of those figures ?
The 'Wall' is so secure, I've given up trying to get answers.
Latest blog entry: Ban Birds.
Jun 10, 2017, 07:03 PM
Gorilla Glue Expert
PikeStaff's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ApexAero
......way before the internet that George Bush invented.......
Not to be rude.....but that "credit" belongs to Al Gore.

Earl - I'm perplexed. Your statements of "non-existent insurance" are, to be sure, concerning. Dues being what they are, surely some of it goes to the insurance kitty.....or does it all go to the "Tajmuncie" mortgage? Like you, I've - fortunately! - not had to make any claims against it, so I cannot verify its existence. But I also cannot deny it. I certainly do hope it exists - for our sake, and that of the AMA. If a claim was ever made, and no insurance existed, the legal ramifications to the AMA would be profound. And another question of, Who Foots That Bill?

With regard to the AMA headquarters, I've never seen that either; seen some references from folks who say it is opulent. I suppose this is inevitable - egos do run wild when there are no reasons not to. All of which would comport well to an organization that really has no concern for, or about, its constituents. I just don't know enough about the organization to form a strong opinion. Hearing that they do not make their financials available is unusual, tho; I would think a request from a bona-fide member would produce results. Peculiar.

I know that lots of people in here have sounded off pretty strongly about the failings of the AMA; I'm guessing they must have some basis for those feelings, but apart from a lot of conjecture and general grumpy posturing there appears to be an absence of any substantive, fact-based abuses or omissions. Could they be doing more? Probably. Could they take the front-line kind of action John Taylor did? Dunno. The law is funky about who, or what, can file lawsuits.

In general, I have no love for any large, bureaucratic organizations, of any persuasion. They typically prove to be essentially useless to the rank-and-file they were created to serve. Maybe the AMA has attained this status.

Without spending a lot of time and energy finding out what they actually do accomplish, I will remain pretty uninformed. Hopefully their politicking skills are decent, and quietly effective. Hopefully the insurance really does exist. And hopefully, they will find their calling - soon - and start making themselves more user-friendly and open.

Until then, let's keep flying our stuff and enjoying a truly great hobby.
Jun 10, 2017, 08:34 PM
Registered User
exf3bguy's Avatar
The insurance does in fact exist. At the Power field that I belong to we had a member crash an electric airplane in the adjacent field. The airplane sparked a fire the burned a couple acres of hay. The member did not have any personal or homeowner insurance so AMA stepped up to the plate and wrote the 30K check to cover the land owners losses.

For the time being, AMA is the required vehicle that is widely recognized by land owners and county offices that supply your fellow modelers places to fly. If AMA was to go under, we would see closures of many flying sites overnite.

I like to fly competitive events, it's just my form of fun with this hobby. That means I travel to a great many sites, all require AMA to participate in the event. " Donating " 75.00 per year so that I can enjoy the 20-25 events that I fly in per year is money well spent IMO. Think about the money spent on other things and how beneficial it is at the end of the year.

How much does the average smoker spend on cigarettes?
How much does the average American spend on coffee?
How much does your wife spend on beauty products that often don't work?
How much does the average American spend on car washes?

Obviously the list could go on forever, 75.00 a year that enables me to fly at hundreds of sites throughout America.........bargain IMO.
Jun 11, 2017, 01:19 AM
Registered User
Link to the AMA insurance paper
http://www.modelaircraft.org/files/I...aryMembers.pdf

When You are doing joint activities who might injury somebody or damage
property, insurance is a good thing! Be glad You've never had a serious
accident.

Last year I had a near accident! I thought I had control until I lost
orientation. I thought I had a safe distance to "most" but the very fast
EDF jet ended up in a car park / area for a small boats. It could have
cost a lot. Got no club membership or specific insurance.

Junked that plane! Not safe to fly a 200km/h jet in that area.

I had never imagined that one of my planes could end up there,
the safety distance looks OK on ground! Lots of trees and a
bay (sea) in between.

BUT for a plane traveling at +40-50m/s it was just a few seconds.

I would like to have a insurance but the insurance available
has limitations in it that make it worthless in my situation.
(I don't fly in a club, it's an hour drive and the field isn't good either)

So what to do? Play safe! Don't extend limits, avoid big fast planes,
simple as that. It's even environmental friendly too! Just think of all
the transport cost/polution saved and time wasted driving to this club ...
In addition the risk reduction! Car driving is a much more dangerous
activity than flying small RC planes.
Last edited by FLOEY; Jun 11, 2017 at 01:28 AM.
Jun 11, 2017, 05:24 AM
Bellanca Kruesair
epoxyearl's Avatar
Thread OP
Good- you guys have started talking. Non-existent Insurance may have been too strong a description. But exf3bguy gave more information on an Insurance payout than I'm aware of. Thanks....

I've been to Muncie several times...I was a member of Giant scale racing in the 90's....The last time I was there, (after driving 10 hours from Maryland) I found the gates locked, and no recourse in finding someone to open them at 3 in the afternoon....4 of us in a RV ready to stay the night. We just assumed that the field would be open until dusk...

I think the AMA has overestimated their 'importance' to the general public....I'd like to see an 'attendance' report at years' end, an accurate estimate if you will, compiled of all activities, including the Nats....It was interesting that there was more flying activity at New Castle, down the road a piece, than at Muncie, on that evening......but if you're locked out........................Our two fields (Cloud Kings and Warbirds) have combination locks with the sequence available to members. Possible at Muncie ?

Luck (bad) plays a small part in safety- most of it is preparation and anticipation that something may go wrong, and acting accordingly. I'm always prepared to intentionally ground an errant model before trying to reach the field if someone could be hurt...

As regards the costs comparison, $75 a year in cigarettes, beer, gas, etc. nets you the same thing at years' end....you have nothing to show for it.Yet people keep on keepin' on....

I'm not trying to get people to quit....I'm trying to get people to think....I'm not so naive as to think if the AMA quits expanding the National Modeling Center that there will be a reduction in dues. The USPS didn't reduce rates when fuel costs dropped over $1.30 a gallon. Wasn't that 'why they raised them' in the first place ?
Latest blog entry: Ban Birds.
Jun 11, 2017, 01:29 PM
Registered User
$75 a year in cigarettes? I don't smoke, but those I know who do seem to spend that much in a week or two.

I've never had to use my AMA insurance and I've never had to use my homeowners insurance either and I hope to keep it that way. The coverage still exists though and in theory they will pay if I need to file a claim.
Jun 11, 2017, 04:50 PM
Registered User

AMA Financial Statement


If you are registered as a Member, on the AMA Website, go to the member section and put Financial Statement in search and a page with years of audited financial statements comes up.
Jun 11, 2017, 06:43 PM
Gorilla Glue Expert
PikeStaff's Avatar

Ah.


Well, it would seem that much of the questioned info is actually available and working. And that is actually very good news.

The insurance element simply had to be there; government takes deep umbrage against those parties who say insurance is in effect, but isn't. Prison sentences have occurred for exactly such events. I don't think the hierarchy at AMA are in any need, or have any desire, to go inside for some time. Knowing that it exists does add credibility to their folio. And some level of comfort to ours.

With regard to Muncie. I know GM used to make wonderful 4-speed transmissions (among other types) at a plant in Muncie, which gave them their identifying name. I'm pretty certain Muncie is in Indiana - but given a map, I am also pretty certain I couldn't find it, not immediately anyway. All of which means, I surely haven't been there. And have no plans to do so, soon. That the AMA has a headquarters is kinda a given; if it's palatial, that might actually be in the eyes of each beholder. Have you been to any local state agency headquarters in the near past? - most of them would probably offer up a fine comparison of official residences. Especially Justice Department headquarters (pick ANY state.....). Really amazing what it takes to execute the people's business. So, maybe the AMA headquarters aren't too far out of the ordinary. Excessive, maybe..but not exceptional. Can't say for sure, having never seen it.

In the end, while the AMA might not be doing all that many think they should be, it just might be that they are doing exactly what they should be. Not flashy, not Big-Brother, not in-your-face.....but quietly, stealthily, hopefully efficiently moving opinions and policies in directions that will ultimately benefit us all. And I do mean all, drones included. Like it or not.

Dues are a part of life. In a club? - you pay dues. In a managed development? - you pay dues (monthly fees). Belong to a professional organization? - cough 'em up. You get something for each dollar, tangible or otherwise. AMA is no different, and the benefits, while more beneficial to some than others, exist nonetheless.

So. While it like appears the AMA is a shiftless, self-serving, less than dues deserving organization, some close introspection of our expectations might be in order. What they actually accomplish might not be flashy - but it just might be keeping a lot of aggravation off our backs.

But boy, I sure do wish they had a nice flight field close to me.
Jun 11, 2017, 07:12 PM
Bellanca Kruesair
epoxyearl's Avatar
Thread OP
Quote:
Originally Posted by PikeStaff
Well, it would seem that much of the questioned info is actually available and working. And that is actually very good news.

The insurance element simply had to be there; government takes deep umbrage against those parties who say insurance is in effect, but isn't. Prison sentences have occurred for exactly such events. I don't think the hierarchy at AMA are in any need, or have any desire, to go inside for some time. Knowing that it exists does add credibility to their folio. And some level of comfort to ours.

With regard to Muncie. I know GM used to make wonderful 4-speed transmissions (among other types) at a plant in Muncie, which gave them their identifying name. I'm pretty certain Muncie is in Indiana - but given a map, I am also pretty certain I couldn't find it, not immediately anyway. All of which means, I surely haven't been there. And have no plans to do so, soon. That the AMA has a headquarters is kinda a given; if it's palatial, that might actually be in the eyes of each beholder. Have you been to any local state agency headquarters in the near past? - most of them would probably offer up a fine comparison of official residences. Especially Justice Department headquarters (pick ANY state.....). Really amazing what it takes to execute the people's business. So, maybe the AMA headquarters aren't too far out of the ordinary. Excessive, maybe..but not exceptional. Can't say for sure, having never seen it.

In the end, while the AMA might not be doing all that many think they should be, it just might be that they are doing exactly what they should be. Not flashy, not Big-Brother, not in-your-face.....but quietly, stealthily, hopefully efficiently moving opinions and policies in directions that will ultimately benefit us all. And I do mean all, drones included. Like it or not.

Dues are a part of life. In a club? - you pay dues. In a managed development? - you pay dues (monthly fees). Belong to a professional organization? - cough 'em up. You get something for each dollar, tangible or otherwise. AMA is no different, and the benefits, while more beneficial to some than others, exist nonetheless.

So. While it like appears the AMA is a shiftless, self-serving, less than dues deserving organization, some close introspection of our expectations might be in order. What they actually accomplish might not be flashy - but it just might be keeping a lot of aggravation off our backs.

But boy, I sure do wish they had a nice flight field close to me.
To some, this may appear to be confrontational...I assure you it isn't.- But if you were to 'fall off the fence', I'd like to know which way you went.
Surely you see the humor in that.?
The paved runways at Muncie are constructed with sand, and whatever they use to make it stick together...They are so smooth that a 1/4 " diameter wheel rolls like a golf ball. I'm not even sure it would put scratches on a wayward wing tip.
I've spent the last few minutes trying to get past some barriers to viewing the Financial statements. My user name 'is already in use', do I want to change my pin number' ? Ahhhh- I'll call them tomorrow- that ought to be interesting...This loud mouth, asking for help..
Latest blog entry: Ban Birds.
Jun 11, 2017, 09:04 PM
Gorilla Glue Expert
PikeStaff's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by epoxyearl
To some, this may appear to be confrontational...I assure you it isn't.- But if you were to 'fall off the fence', I'd like to know which way you went.
Surely you see the humor in that.?
The paved runways at Muncie are constructed with sand, and whatever they use to make it stick together...They are so smooth that a 1/4 " diameter wheel rolls like a golf ball. I'm not even sure it would put scratches on a wayward wing tip.
I've spent the last few minutes trying to get past some barriers to viewing the Financial statements. My user name 'is already in use', do I want to change my pin number' ? Ahhhh- I'll call them tomorrow- that ought to be interesting...This loud mouth, asking for help..
Believe me, I never saw it as confrontational - only frustrated. And, please be assured that I most certainly do NOT wish to be confrontational either. That is the last thing desired.

I've fallen off a few fences in the past. And usually, fell to the carry-on side; it takes serious failure to push me the other way. I'm hardly in love with the AMA, but I honestly don't have an axe to grind, either. They strike me as a little bumbling, very devoted to their cause but would prefer to just get along. Wouldn't we all.

I guess I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt. Absent any glaringly stupid moves from them, I'm content to let them represent me for the price of annual dues. I don't have any illusions about their innocence - playing politics, even poorly, precludes that luxury. So knowing they have the most stellar facilities at their home base isn't surprising. I only wish I lived closer, to get something a bit more tangible from the dues. Oh, well.

Your effort to get info, in a more directed manner, is commendable. I think you're going to wind up with the knowledge you originally sought - but getting it is requiring more effort than ought to be made by a dues-paying member.

That's frustrating. Stay strong, amigo. Non illegitimi carborundum.
Jun 12, 2017, 02:52 AM
Bellanca Kruesair
epoxyearl's Avatar
Thread OP
Thanky....For those who have gotten this far, I want to trust the AMA again, or maybe MORE would be a better word....
I'm not taking anything away from what they are doing, but I feel 'lost'...
I'm active in 3 Clubs, so it isn't the 'dues' thing....I used to mow the grass at Delaware Warbirds' field, so I know the costs involved.....I repair the grounds-keeping equipment at another club, so I'm aware of those expenses..The other club I support because, well, I just may want to fly there sometime, and membership is required.
All the above are tangible things I can touch or see. Maybe I'm jaded because I have a different agenda for the AMA, and my suggestions are falling on deaf ears.. I don't think it will matter in six months though, because I probably won't 're-up', and then I'll need to keep my opinions to myself...
Latest blog entry: Ban Birds.
Jun 15, 2017, 06:08 AM
the smell of nitro in the morn
Earl, Reading your post you remind me of me. I am a joiner and non joiner of AMA over the years. I was pulled in around 1974 for a few years and took a little time to skim through thier insurance paperwork and found it to sound better than it was. Better than nothing maybe but required at most all clubs.
I think the small light relatively inexpensive foamys flying in school soccer ,football, fields has gotten a lot of new flyers in the hobby. They may not feel the value in AMA insurance.
To compare the yearly cost of smoking,drinking,womanizing, to the cost of a vice to AMA is sort of apples to lemons. You are not required to support your vice you choose to, unless our hobby is a vice, I know many wives on that fence. Did i say womanizing lol

I agree the FAA will be back and thats just a fact of life. I viewed or started to view some youtube videos of people claiming AMA claim of victory over the FAA rulings was not the product of AMA s hard work but of a private citizen standing alone in court. Its on YouTube and the Internet so it cant be wrong lol.

What would it take for me to be comfortable, or less concerned in Dec when I renew my AMA? I suppose clear accounting of how much money came in
, how much was spent on claims, how many claims were submitted and how many were denied ( submit your home owners insurance first). I am sure with a lot of reading that information is available but i also think it doesnt need to be buried in volumes of paperwork.

I know some people were offended by your post but feel it is an important point to bring up, sometimes great things get so big they crumble under thier own weight. I love this hobby and flying 1/4 scale i feel the need for insurance but when i spent three years flying foamys at a soccer field i didnt feel the need.
Do people feel the price of AMA is higher than it should be? Should it be more of straight insurance and less events and covering the cost of Muncie.
Maybe go back having AMA events around the country so more members can go to national events or would that cost more?

Earl we have lots of questions, Thanks for starting this.
Matt
Sep 16, 2017, 06:37 PM
Play that funky music right
kenh3497's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by matt123
Maybe go back having AMA events around the country so more members can go to national events or would that cost more?
Matt
In fact the Nats Pattern events were held in Arkansas this year. Cant remember the town now but it was an old Air Force base i guess. The F3A (pattern) bunch is trying to bolster membership as well. Trying some new things to get more people involved. That organisation is also having "issues" with the status quo and some members of that SIG are rebelling. So.... It's not just the AMA that is having problems.

Ken

PS I guess the 2017 F3A nats went over very well with great attendance and some new pilots. It was opened up to the lowest class of pilots also which if I remember correctly was a first.


Quick Reply
Message:
Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Category Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Discussion Who will lobby Congress for the next FAA reauthorization bill? kallend Model Aircraft & Drone Advocacy 129 Jun 06, 2017 07:12 AM
Discussion House passes healthcare bill...who is that a victory for? Goonie Works Life, The Universe, and Politics 117 May 12, 2017 03:06 AM
Discussion North Dakota Bill Would Protect Drivers Who ‘Accidentally’ Hit And Kill Protesters kenpoprofessor Life, The Universe, and Politics 88 Jan 27, 2017 11:34 PM
Question Who pays the crippled soldiers bills for life ? His families bills for life ? cyclops2 Life, The Universe, and Politics 85 Dec 23, 2013 01:24 PM
Discussion Billing 44 foot MLB kit Tim Stolle Scale Boats 2 Aug 10, 2006 07:55 PM