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Mar 20, 2017, 04:12 AM
1 revolution and throw!
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rules about wind


hi,

i want to ask how other nationalities read the rules about max. allowed wind during a contest , or do they cancel it when predictions are above xxM/s
What do other read out ? do they take the max read they see ? the anemometers i have seen just give the actual windspeed , they could not take an average over one minute orso.

Reason for asking is that we are planning to set a very clear rule in belgium to follow as the FIA rules seem to be open for interpretation.

yesterdag at our contest we messured the windspeed frequently , i was watching one time where for about 30 sec the read-outs where between 7.5 and 12.5m/s
we interpreted the FIA rules as follows , if we see a number below eight on the screen appear during a 1 minute meassurment the we fly , it can be 15ms for 59seconds and 7.9 for 1sec then it's a go.

planes do get hard to launch when windspeeds go above 12ms , they need a lot of ballast to maintain positive groundspeed (you need to fly well above 12m/s offcourse)
and landings can be very tricky aswell as the plane gets smached around highly ballasted , a very fast reaction and a lot of throw is surely needed.

How do others determine a contest or cancel it perhaps ? based on what ?
Do they take minimum windspeed as reference ? average(which is hard to get)? or max windspeed to decidede wheter to start or not or stop flying ?

i have a very strong feeling others are not taking min windspeed to decide on....based on how little ballast they seem to have for they're fleet of contest dlg's....

i also wonder what we will do in ukraine on the WC if meassurments go to let's say 14m/s but a brief drop below 8 could be measured durting 1 minute ....a large number of pilots might not be prepared for that


guess what , we didn't see 1 QT yesterday lol
Last edited by krikkens; Mar 20, 2017 at 04:18 AM.
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Mar 20, 2017, 04:48 AM
french team pilote
Hi Kristof ,
Why not do the reverse ? if gust are up to 12 ms , contest is canceled or stoped . I think (like you ) 12 ms is really an High limit and then , it's near to unflyable .

what you orthers guys are thinkiong about this new rules ??
Mar 20, 2017, 07:55 AM
Registered User
According the rules the wind is measured at 2 meters height. With wind speeds around 9 m/s, it is usually quitte gusty as well, and hardly ever above 9m/s for a whole minute. So according the rules the wind will be within limits most of the time.
With winds of 9m/s at 2 meters height, the winds at 50 meters height are often 50 pct more, increasing rapidly to double the speed at 150 meters height.
Measured winds of coarse also depend on the field conditions, trees, buildings etc.

According the rules we will have to fly quite often in conditions that we actually should not, at least not during a contest. Personally I like to fly in strong winds, but then I take out an old beat up lower span dlg.

I think that the difference between the average wind and the maximum wind should be within certain limits to make the rules more in line with what they try to accomplish. Banning conditions that are not suitable.
Mar 20, 2017, 08:29 AM
Father of Fr3aK, DLG Pilot
tom43004's Avatar
When the winds are high, you have a choice whether you fly or not. That choice is separate from whether the contest continues. I have walked away from a contest or skipped a round or two when the CD flew through wind or rain that removed the "fun" factor for me.

These are toy airplanes. I love to compete but I also don't want to bust up my toys chasing a ribbon or trophy that I'll never look at again. Decide every round whether you can safely fly and have fun. If not, you can always skip a round and decide again.
Mar 20, 2017, 08:54 AM
1 revolution and throw!
Quote:
Originally Posted by tom43004
When the winds are high, you have a choice whether you fly or not. That choice is separate from whether the contest continues. I have walked away from a contest or skipped a round or two when the CD flew through wind or rain that removed the "fun" factor for me.

These are toy airplanes. I love to compete but I also don't want to bust up my toys chasing a ribbon or trophy that I'll never look at again. Decide every round whether you can safely fly and have fun. If not, you can always skip a round and decide again.
Like here , some pilots decided to stop flying aswell , either after damage or just to prevent damage , others where on the edgeof deciding to stop but continued flying.

We do stop the contest immediatlly when it starts to rain , the round is flown over again when the rain stops .
Wind requires a slightly diffrent approach i think ...

setting a max orso is difficult , 8 would be to low for sure , we can have an average of 3-4 with gusts to 8 or it can be 6+ with gusts to 8 , that's a total different story . same would be true if max would be set at 12 for instance , average can be 6 but could aslo be 10......


in smaller countries the national contests all togheter oftenly detirmine the national ranking for that contest year + the tickets to go to a WC.
that's diffrent then in the USA for instance .
in small countries travelling is not an issue and the best 3 over the whole year are granted a WC ticket which is a very fair solution only applyable in small countries i believe)

if nobody decides to stop due to wind or rain , the ones aiming for a ticket will continue even it's ridicilous (flying in rain for instance)

still wonder what will be done if at the wc winds will be hauling....


setting a max for gusts would lickely be a good solution as these gusts make it unflyable or bigger chance for damage , 12 sounds like a good number ....

Are contest cancelled or stopped due to the wind elsewhere in the world??? we never did it and we live in an area lickely to have high winds.
What do CD's base there decision on/how do they interpeted the rules ?
an how to make for a descent set of rules which leave no room for interpretation
Last edited by krikkens; Mar 20, 2017 at 09:01 AM.
Mar 20, 2017, 09:04 AM
Father of Fr3aK, DLG Pilot
tom43004's Avatar
I have only ever been in one contest cancelled for wind. It was at Florida a few years ago and I was flying a model at 400g backwards.

As for rain, in the US sometimes CDs drive us to fly through rain. I won't fly in rain.
Mar 20, 2017, 09:18 AM
1 revolution and throw!
Quote:
Originally Posted by tom43004
I have only ever been in one contest cancelled for wind. It was at Florida a few years ago and I was flying a model at 400g backwards.

As for rain, in the US sometimes CDs drive us to fly through rain. I won't fly in rain.
the newer crop of models can be flown lighter these days .
yesterdag the revolutions,snipes and nxt where around 300gr but most wished they had more ballast .

a few years back on a very windy eurotour the top level pilots where flying between 450and 550grams .

if i remmeber correctly 1 pilot made 3 turns with a 550gr model then put it in speed mode and landed more then half a mile out .

like jeroen wrote at higher altitude the winds are even stronger and we where measuring 10-12 on the ground with a lot of bushes ,tents and obstaceles very close upwind
Mar 20, 2017, 09:36 AM
hot air rises...
jfinch's Avatar
I've only been at one contest cut short by wind... Team Selects at Denver. I've been to many contests where we flew through pretty strong winds. As a CD, deciding what to do when the wind kicks up is just about the hardest thing. It always seems like half the field wants to continue and half wants to stop.

I like your idea of a max allowable wind. For example, maybe you must stop if any gust within a 1 min window is measured over 13 m/s OR if the average windspeed during that min is above 8 m/s?
Mar 20, 2017, 09:38 AM
Father of Fr3aK, DLG Pilot
tom43004's Avatar
As long as it accounts for a strong occasional thermal breeze, I'd be for that as well.


...forgot about the TS in Denver. All I remember from that weekend was the TFRs.
Mar 20, 2017, 10:14 AM
1 revolution and throw!
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfinch
I've only been at one contest cut short by wind... Team Selects at Denver. I've been to many contests where we flew through pretty strong winds. As a CD, deciding what to do when the wind kicks up is just about the hardest thing. It always seems like half the field wants to continue and half wants to stop.

I like your idea of a max allowable wind. For example, maybe you must stop if any gust within a 1 min window is measured over 13 m/s OR if the average windspeed during that min is above 8 m/s?
the reason i'm in favor of the max gust is because this is what kills planes and people's entousism to fly f3k (each person needs to decide what wind they can or want handle but heavy gusts ussually causes broken stuff , maybe setting a max is favorable .
+ it is easy to measure.

average windspeed ,good idea but hard to meassure (with cheap equipment ) i haven't done research but the windmeters i have seen don't meassure average .

...i think i've seen more above then under ...... can cause i discusion to stop the contest or not .

We are also thinking about relying on forcast to cancel the contest 2 days before , so the hosting club can be informed not to prepare food and such .
Mar 20, 2017, 11:36 AM
french team pilote
like sayed Kristof , gusts are easyer to mesure ! when it s not over 8 m/s for 60 sec but only 50 sec it's difficult to know if in 10 min it s will not be ...

a gust is a gust it's not on a period ! then anyone with an anemometer coulm mesure the wind max .

for me , as I sayed earlier , it's not selective to fly in more than 12 m/s wind it's just ridiculous and really stressfull for all , and dangerous for pilots and helpers on the field ...

just my 2ct
Mar 20, 2017, 11:56 AM
Oleg Golovidov
olgol's Avatar
I assume you guys have read the new F3K rule change proposals.
Is the new proposed way to measure the wind good enough, in your opinion?
(proposal V from Germany)

https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...73&postcount=1
Mar 20, 2017, 12:31 PM
Cognitive dissonance
kcaldwel's Avatar
Doesn't this depend a lot on the response time of the anemometer? Without some sort of standard for that, you will likely always find a gust induced lull below 8m/sec if the instrument is fast enough.

2m isn't high enough to get out of the ground turbulence, so you aren't really measuring wind speed at all anyway. The measurement should likely be done at the international standard of 10m, the response time of the instrument should be specified, and likely and averaging time period as well.

Kevin
Mar 20, 2017, 01:04 PM
1 revolution and throw!
Quote:
Originally Posted by olgol
I assume you guys have read the new F3K rule change proposals.
Is the new proposed way to measure the wind good enough, in your opinion?
(proposal V from Germany)

https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...73&postcount=1
not sure if i'm a fan of the rule change , still means we should have flown yesterdag in 20 seconds we saw reads between 7.5 and 12.5 .
and then you need to have 3 times a full 20sec window witout dropping below 8 ?

i think i have never seen it not drop below 8 for a 20 sec window , even when averages are 12 and gusts op to 15 and more.....there's always a brief drop below 8 for a split second.

To me this seems a brand new formulation to say you always need to fly according the rules....

Not sure wha't wrong with settign a max , cheap and easy to measure in a simple and straight rule which cannot be interpreted in more then 1 way...
And i think it covers just about that what we try to achieve , no?
Mar 20, 2017, 01:09 PM
1 revolution and throw!
Quote:
Originally Posted by kcaldwel
Doesn't this depend a lot on the response time of the anemometer? Without some sort of standard for that, you will likely always find a gust induced lull below 8m/sec if the instrument is fast enough.

2m isn't high enough to get out of the ground turbulence, so you aren't really measuring wind speed at all anyway. The measurement should likely be done at the international standard of 10m, the response time of the instrument should be specified, and likely and averaging time period as well.

Kevin
if there's a weather station nearby one can rely on this data but that's not always the case offcourse , requiring the need for an accurate station at 10m high is asked to much on a CD...