Thread Tools
Apr 30, 2019, 07:40 PM
Wisconsin
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve2303
First of all: sorry for my noob questions but I'm trying to go through the whole wiki and just could not figure it out myself.

I am currently designing a gimbal for my Sony A6300 and A7RII camera. At first i was looking at the T-Motor GB 4106 motors. Then I read in the wiki that the Storm Boards actually support encoders and wondered wheter I woud be better off buying motors with built in encoders. However I read on different pages that the encoder support is still in beta. Whats the actual state of developement? Is it "safe" to use or am I better of with a standard setup without encoder and possibly an CC3D as a NT module instead of the old MPU`s? Can I achieve steady footage without the encoders aswell?
I was looking at getting these motors instead of the T Motors due to the built in encoders: Link

The first thing to consider is that in order to get the encoder on a board inside the motor housing the manufacturers must move the motor mounting holes to a larger diameter. So the last time I looked thre were no gimbals for Nex sized cameras that had mounting arms drilled to take any encoder motors.
Latest blog entry: UC4H: Gimbal flight test
Sign up now
to remove ads between posts
May 01, 2019, 02:02 AM
OlliW
Thread OP
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alchemist_Arthur
I am interested in this system to mount on a walking robot, does T-storm 32 support having the first motor mounted perpendicular to the ground (roll -> yaw -> pitch)?
I guess you mean then pitch->yaw->roll (it goes from inner to outer)

this configuration is not directly supported, it can be used however with a T-STorM32 setup with no practical problems.

What you need to do is to do the initial setup with the gimbal in the default pitch->roll->yaw configuration, which is nothing else than the desired pitch->yaw->roll but with the gimbal base tilted by 90. So, you do the initial setup in this configuration, and once you have done that you can use the gimbal in your orientation.
May 01, 2019, 02:18 AM
OlliW
Thread OP
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve2303
Then I read in the wiki that the Storm Boards actually support encoders and wondered wheter I woud be better off buying motors with built in encoders. However I read on different pages that the encoder support is still in beta. Whats the actual state of developement? Is it "safe" to use or am I better of with a standard setup without encoder and possibly an CC3D as a NT module instead of the old MPU`s? Can I achieve steady footage without the encoders aswell?
there is nothing beta with the STorM32 encoder support. I think the "beta status" you find on only Gapey's pages, and I have no idea why he put it up there. T-STorM32 is around for 2 years now, and as mature as it can be. There are however not many users of T-STorM32.

If it's the right choice for you really depends on the mechanical skills and tools. It's significantly easier to build a non-encoder gimbal. Motors with encoders sound great, but you need to be prepared to drill holes, threads, adapter plates, do some 1mm pitch soldering, and such sort of things. The examples in this thread here might give you an impression on what it took folks to build a T-STorM32 gimbal.

You can get quite good results without encoders, some videos might confirm this to you. However it seems that over the last two years a kind of consensus was arrived by the few T-StorM32 users that with encoders it's better.

You should also know however that either way you are not garantueed to get excellent results! This again mostly depends on your skills to build a gimbal. STorM32 or T-STorM32 aren't wizzards, they won't make a bad gimbal to be good. Crap in, crap out, right.

May 01, 2019, 02:52 AM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_kelly
The first thing to consider is that in order to get the encoder on a board inside the motor housing the manufacturers must move the motor mounting holes to a larger diameter. So the last time I looked thre were no gimbals for Nex sized cameras that had mounting arms drilled to take any encoder motors.
This one has support, but it is quite expensive https://www.rosewhite.de/en/dragon-2

EDIT: Oh, I just saw that it has external encoders, not inside the motors.
May 01, 2019, 03:13 AM
OlliW
Thread OP
good reminder, thx

this gimbal is unfortunately not usable with T-STorM32 "out-of-the-box", but made for Alexmos/Basecam.
(in which case the wiring is becoming, well, let's call it, "interesting": https://fpv-community.de/threads/bas.../#post-1017312, see pic attached)

so one would have to do some solder work to attach the encoder per SPI to the NT motor module (some may consider this a delicate solder job), or replace the encoder holders with own-made adapters carrying the NT motor module with encoder. That's what I would do.
Maybe, however, given the price of that gimbal, I guess a buyer could ask Tilmann if he would do adapters for a small price.

or maybe your housings/adapters would work

EDIT: The encoders are kind of always outside of the motors! Also those motors which come with encoders essentially are nothing else than the motor with an additional housing screwed on top of them to make them appear as one (a prototypical example: https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...&postcount=792). Tilman's solution is not that bad.
May 01, 2019, 04:11 AM
Registered User
Thanks for your quick reply. Since I am designing and building the gimbal myself mounting holes are not really a problem for me. So I can construced the gimbal easily to match the mounting holes.

I am still however not sure if I got all the important information right so far:
1. When I buy these Motors (LINK) it is basically the same as if I would buy this board (MOTOR BOARDS T-STORM32 V2.4E MOLEX LINK) and a standard gimbal motor with a mangnet mounted on the motor? Only difference beeing I do not have to figure out how to mount the board and the magnet properly when I buy the motors with the built in encoder (PM4108 with AS5600 encoder). Since mounting holes for the motors aren't an issue for me either it is no disadvantage for me to buy these motors. Additionally I can buy these motors with a slipring aswell.

2. As far as I understood I need to build the setup according to the attached picture. So for my 3 Axis gimbal I need the 3 Motors with encoders, the control board and the NT modul (LINK).


3. This is the current and pretty basic concept of my gimbal design. It is ment to be carried with a hexacopter. the material for the gimbal frame is 2mm cfk.
May 02, 2019, 02:43 AM
Registered User
In my experience you will need a bigger motor on yaw. This looks very similar to my setup. I am not totally sure what kind of motor I used for yaw. I think it was a 6xxx. I think I have 410x in pitch and roll. Also you want to use a counter bearing on roll. The a6x00 are quite heavy compared to most action cam setups people normally deal with here (~500g incl. lens). The motors aren't quite made to bear that shearing load.
May 02, 2019, 03:27 AM
OlliW
Thread OP
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve2303
Thanks for your quick reply. Since I am designing and building the gimbal myself mounting holes are not really a problem for me. So I can construced the gimbal easily to match the mounting holes.
that's great, and a great advantage you have

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve2303
I am still however not sure if I got all the important information right so far:
1. When I buy these Motors ... it is basically the same as if I would buy this board ... and a standard gimbal motor with a mangnet mounted on the motor? Only difference beeing I do not have to figure out how to mount the board and the magnet properly when I buy the motors with the built in encoder (PM4108 with AS5600 encoder). Since mounting holes for the motors aren't an issue for me either it is no disadvantage for me to buy these motors. Additionally I can buy these motors with a slipring aswell.
first off, the AS5600 encoder is NOT supported by STorM32!!! (reason: it's a crappy cheap encoder)

otherwise, I would say: largely yes.

the ready-made encoder-motors can pose problems. For instance, the gap between magnet and encoder can be very small (you find an example of this in this thread here). If it's a motor with hollow shaft and magnet ring the small gap can make it difficult to get the wires through without causing lots of friction.
So, it's always a compromise. In principle it's always better to do things by one own since it's then as one wants it to be, but it adds additional hurdles and efforts.

I would think the "best" could be to get the motors with ring magnets already integrated/installed, but with no encoder module. That way one doesn't have to work out how to mount the magnet, but could simply use a NT motor module with installed TL5012 encoder, and only has to figure out how to mount this, which usually isn't very difficult.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve2303
2. As far as I understood I need to build the setup according to the attached picture. So for my 3 Axis gimbal I need the 3 Motors with encoders, the control board and the NT modul
no. If you have a T-STorM32 in mind you need

1) 3x motors with magnets
2) 3x encoders (either on the motor, a separate encoder module, or the NT motor module)
3) 3x NT motor module
4) 1x STorM32 controller board (preferably v3.3 for a T-STorM32 build)
5) 1x NT Imu module (you could use the CC3D, but there are better options available)

point (3) makes the T-STorM32 electronics unfortunately relatively expensive

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve2303
3. This is the current and pretty basic concept of my gimbal design. It is ment to be carried with a hexacopter. the material for the gimbal frame is 2mm cfk.
I would suggest to also very seriously look at buckker's build. He really got excellent results, and apparently had mastered the gimbal construction challenge
May 02, 2019, 08:08 AM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by noradtux
In my experience you will need a bigger motor on yaw. This looks very similar to my setup. I am not totally sure what kind of motor I used for yaw. I think it was a 6xxx. I think I have 410x in pitch and roll. Also you want to use a counter bearing on roll. The a6x00 are quite heavy compared to most action cam setups people normally deal with here (~500g incl. lens). The motors aren't quite made to bear that shearing load.
My maximum payload i planned is around 840 grams (camera+lens). Do you think a 6xxx motor is really neccessary for yaw? As I see these motors are pretty heavy. ..

Quote:
Originally Posted by OlliW
that's great, and a great advantage you have

first off, the AS5600 encoder is NOT supported by STorM32!!! (reason: it's a crappy cheap encoder)
Thanks for the headsup

Quote:
Originally Posted by OlliW
I would think the "best" could be to get the motors with ring magnets already integrated/installed, but with no encoder module. That way one doesn't have to work out how to mount the magnet, but could simply use a NT motor module with installed TL5012 encoder, and only has to figure out how to mount this, which usually isn't very difficult.
no. If you have a T-STorM32 in mind you need
1) 3x motors with magnets
2) 3x encoders (either on the motor, a separate encoder module, or the NT motor module )
3) 3x NT motor module
4) 1x STorM32 controller board (preferably v3.3 for a T-STorM32 build)
5) 1x NT Imu module (you could use the CC3D, but there are better options available)
Ok. So I still got it wrong haha. Sorry!
So since you mentioned the NT Motormodule twice (are you reffering to these: "MOTOR BOARDS T-STORM32 V2.4E MOLEX"?) I am kinda confused again...
If I buy motors with ring magnets mounted (do you have a link to such motors? or do you mean I should buy the ones from my link with the crappy encoders and make better encoders fit in the housing?), I then find a solution to mount the "MOTOR BOARDS T-STORM32 V2.4E MOLEX" and I am ready to go? I do not need the extra 3x encoders (from your list above nr. 2)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by OlliW
I would suggest to also very seriously look at buckker's build. He really got excellent results, and apparently had mastered the gimbal construction challenge
Yes I already found some pictures. It look really pretty but kinda heavy. Considering the rosewhite dragon 2 uses 3x GB4106 for a maximum payload rated at 1kg I can't see a reason to use such big and heavy motors...? Or am I overseeing something again?
May 02, 2019, 09:11 AM
OlliW
Thread OP
Quote:
Do you think a 6xxx motor is really neccessary for yaw? As I see these motors are pretty heavy. ..
IMHO noradtux'es point was that on yaw one generally requires a stronger motor. I don't think he wanted to say that it must be a 6xxx specifically.
The reason is simple: The yaw motor has to handle the biggest "mass" (moment of inertia), thus this motor should be "stronger", which essentially means "larger"
you btw can wrap the argument around: if you find that a 4xxx motor is ok for your yaw, then you could use smaller motors on pitch and roll, and safe weight, i.e. argue "Is a 4xxx motor really necessary for pitch&roll?" !!

Quote:
2) 3x encoders (either on the motor, a separate encoder module, or the NT motor module )

...
So since you mentioned the NT Motormodule twice ... I am kinda confused again...
If I buy motors with ring magnets mounted ..., I then find a solution to mount the "MOTOR BOARDS T-STORM32 V2.4E MOLEX" and I am ready to go? I do not need the extra 3x encoders ?
as implied by (2) there are 3 variations to how one could do it

A) you have a motor with magnet and encoder included. In that case you would need a NT motor module without installed encoder, and connect the encoder in the motor to the NT motor module (soldering some wires from the encoder module to the NT motor module)

B) you have a motor with magnet but without encoder, and have an extra encoder module. In that case you would need a NT motor module without installed encoder, and connect the encoder on your extra encoder module to the NT motor module (soldering some wires from the encoder in the motor to the NT motor module), and have to mechanically mount the extra encoder module in appropriate position.

C) you have a motor with magnet but without encoder, and have an NT motor module with encoder installed. In that case you don't have to do any extra soldering related to the encoder, and just have to mechanically mount the NT motor module in appropriate position.

Gapey's is the only place I know off where you can buy NT motor modules. On his page this would be either
* Motor boards T-Storm32 v2.4E molex
* MOTOR BOARDS T-STORM32 V2.51E SQ
Both are equivalent and differ only in shape and connectors.
Both you can have with an encoder installed (as needed for C) or without encoder (as needed for A and B)

Quote:
It look really pretty but kinda heavy. Considering the rosewhite dragon 2 uses 3x GB4106 for a maximum payload rated at 1kg I can't see a reason to use such big and heavy motors...? Or am I overseeing something again?
well, that's the sad thing about gimbal design ... if one got the right motors one only would know afterwards ... and in many cases also only if one would have tried the different motors and compared the results ...

the one thing I can tell is that buckker's design appeared to work really well. It seems he has done some things right. Buckker was once telling me that in his experience bigger motors do better, and that's why he was choosing the ones he chose.
To be clear, it is difficult to say what the "things" are which he got right. Specifically, I'm not reporting this to imply that larger motors are generally better. For instance, I could imagine that buckker's success was more due to the brand of motors he was using than the size of the motors. But without one-to-one comparison we can't really know for sure that the reasons for success are.

I'd like to mention that the fact that the Dragon uses GB4106 motors doesn't mean that these are the best choice. I doubt that really many different motors and motor sizes were tested to arrive at such a conclusion.

I'd look at it as this: It appears you have two reference designs for somewhat similar camera weights, buckker's and Dragon. Buckker's is reportedly working very well, and the Dragon supposedly so. So. let's assume a tie here. But both differ markedly in motor size. What is the conclusion of that? I really don't know. Like noradtux I however would think that using similar sized motors for all three axes doesn't feel right.
May 02, 2019, 03:10 PM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by OlliW
IMHO noradtux'es point was that on yaw one generally requires a stronger motor. I don't think he wanted to say that it must be a 6xxx specifically.
The reason is simple: The yaw motor has to handle the biggest "mass" (moment of inertia), thus this motor should be "stronger", which essentially means "larger"
you btw can wrap the argument around: if you find that a 4xxx motor is ok for your yaw, then you could use smaller motors on pitch and roll, and safe weight, i.e. argue "Is a 4xxx motor really necessary for pitch&roll?" !!
Haven't taken a look at that point of view! Seems quite logical to me though. I'm gonna go with 4xxx for Roll and Pitch and 5xxx for Yaw I guess. Since there are some complicated drone laws in Austria I have to count every gramm. So I try to go for the lightes but still functional setup. If I run into some troubles I can still change the motors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OlliW
C) you have a motor with magnet but without encoder, and have an NT motor module with encoder installed. In that case you don't have to do any extra soldering related to the encoder, and just have to mechanically mount the NT motor module in appropriate position.
That sounds like a good plan. I'm gonna go with this setup. Regarding how to mount the modules I still haven't figured out how. I looked at the gimbal designs in this thread however I can't get my head around how to mount the magnet in a way, it is turning with the motor. Are there any sketches availiable? I don't know how to express my problem right but let me try:
The motors have to faces/sides. The one side with the screwholes wider apart is mostly the side you would use to mount the motor to the Gimbal frame - so this side does not move at all, it is fixed. The other side of the motor (mostly with the smaller screw spacing) is used to mount the axis to the motor in order to make the axis move - this side is in movement all the time, and shall be tracked with the encoder. So how am I ment to install the ringmagnets on the moving motor and encoder on the frame so it can "meassure" the location of the motor? For me these are two opposite sides

Quote:
Originally Posted by OlliW
Gapey's is the only place I know off where you can buy NT motor modules. On his page this would be either
* Motor boards T-Storm32 v2.4E molex
* MOTOR BOARDS T-STORM32 V2.51E SQ
Both are equivalent and differ only in shape and connectors.
ok then I'll choose the one which fits my design best.


Quote:
Originally Posted by OlliW
the one thing I can tell is that buckker's design appeared to work really well. It seems he has done some things right. Buckker was once telling me that in his experience bigger motors do better, and that's why he was choosing the ones he chose.
To be clear, it is difficult to say what the "things" are which he got right. Specifically, I'm not reporting this to imply that larger motors are generally better. For instance, I could imagine that buckker's success was more due to the brand of motors he was using than the size of the motors. But without one-to-one comparison we can't really know for sure that the reasons for success are.
So in your opinion Dualsky motors are a good choice? I haven't had them on my radar. What do you think about the T-Motors. From my copter builds I know they make great propulsion systems. Don't have any experience with the gimbal motors though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OlliW
I'd look at it as this: It appears you have two reference designs for somewhat similar camera weights, buckker's and Dragon. Buckker's is reportedly working very well, and the Dragon supposedly so. So. let's assume a tie here. But both differ markedly in motor size. What is the conclusion of that? I really don't know. Like noradtux I however would think that using similar sized motors for all three axes doesn't feel right.
Thank you VERY much for your time and effort. I HIGHLY appreciate it. Not only the time you put into the developement or the wiki but especially for the time you took to answer my silly questions!
May 02, 2019, 06:15 PM
Wisconsin
Ensys offers motor modules also:
https://www.ensys.lt/product/storm32-nt-motor-driver/

JD-Power offers gimbal motors with the magnet installed and with an optional encoder board.
http://www.jdpower-tech.com/

I was able to get packages of the STorM32 board and NT IMU on Ebay cheaper than buying just the IMU.
Last edited by mike_kelly; May 02, 2019 at 06:20 PM.
May 02, 2019, 09:55 PM
OlliW
Thread OP
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve2303
That sounds like a good plan. I'm gonna go with this setup.
that's what I think buckker and also noratux did. I think they both did 3D housings which could be put over the motors, and inside which the NT motor modules are located. For such builds the round NT motor modules might serve better, but also the squares maybe as its X-wings can be cut off

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve2303
Regarding how to mount the modules I still haven't figured out how. I looked at the gimbal designs in this thread however I can't get my head around how to mount the magnet in a way, it is turning with the motor. Are there any sketches availiable? I don't know how to express my problem right but let me try:
The motors have to faces/sides. The one side with the screwholes wider apart is mostly the side you would use to mount the motor to the Gimbal frame - so this side does not move at all, it is fixed. The other side of the motor (mostly with the smaller screw spacing) is used to mount the axis to the motor in order to make the axis move - this side is in movement all the time, and shall be tracked with the encoder. So how am I ment to install the ringmagnets on the moving motor and encoder on the frame so it can "meassure" the location of the motor? For me these are two opposite sides
well ... I guess if you scan the web for build pictures/sketches it could be more explaining than words

generally, the encoder magnet must track the rotation of the one arm in relation to the other arm. This really can be achieved in many differ ways. The Dragon e.g. has a support axle on roll, so this would certainly be a somewhat different construction than e.g. for the pitch axis.

The "usual" setup is to have the magnet on the stator side of the motor axle.
First, notation: The motor has two sides, the stator and rotor. The stator is the part which has the coils, and the rotor is the part which has the magnets. It's usually easy to identify, since the 3 motor wires are located on the stator, and the rotor is the bell-like part also connected to the axle of the motor.
The "usual" setup is then that the stator is mounted to supporting arm, and the rotor to the moving arm. In case of the pitch axis e.g. the moving arm would be the part where the camera is mounted to, and the supporting arm the part which goes to the roll motor. The magnet is then mounted to the axle of the motor, on the side with faces to stator and/or supporting arm. That's the arrangements of magnets as you find it also on all the motors which have an encoder which you can buy out there.

you'll find a sketch in the wiki: http://www.olliw.eu/storm32bgc-wiki/...orM32_about%3F
you also could go to this therad's "thread tools" -> "show attachments" to find sketches and build&motor pics


Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve2303
So in your opinion Dualsky motors are a good choice? I haven't had them on my radar. What do you think about the T-Motors. From my copter builds I know they make great propulsion systems. Don't have any experience with the gimbal motors though.
I can't tell since I have zero experience with such motors myself (first, I really can't buy/test all motors out there, second I myself just built smaller gimbals). The only thing I can do is to report back what ever comments of others are stored in my brain.
May 02, 2019, 09:56 PM
OlliW
Thread OP
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_kelly
in my understanding the Ensys motor modules do NOT support T-STorM32 and can't be used for encodered builds!!

these might be useful links too (never bought there, just what google returned)
- http://shop.smc-powers.com/Motor/For-Gimbal-Motor
- http://mymobilemms.com/OFFTHEGRIDWAT...rushless-Motor
Last edited by OlliW; May 02, 2019 at 10:03 PM.
May 03, 2019, 06:35 AM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_kelly
Ensys offers motor modules also:
https://www.ensys.lt/product/storm32-nt-motor-driver/

JD-Power offers gimbal motors with the magnet installed and with an optional encoder board.
http://www.jdpower-tech.com/

I was able to get packages of the STorM32 board and NT IMU on Ebay cheaper than buying just the IMU.
Thank you for the links. I already took a look at the ensys page however I think the gapey's drivers are better for me due to the mounting holes. makes mounting them in a fixed postion a lot easier I think.
I also took a look at the motors. please see the attachted picture below.


Quote:
Originally Posted by OlliW
The "usual" setup is to have the magnet on the stator side of the motor axle.
First, notation: The motor has two sides, the stator and rotor. The stator is the part which has the coils, and the rotor is the part which has the magnets. It's usually easy to identify, since the 3 motor wires are located on the stator, and the rotor is the bell-like part also connected to the axle of the motor.
The "usual" setup is then that the stator is mounted to supporting arm, and the rotor to the moving arm. In case of the pitch axis e.g. the moving arm would be the part where the camera is mounted to, and the supporting arm the part which goes to the roll motor. The magnet is then mounted to the axle of the motor, on the side with faces to stator and/or supporting arm. That's the arrangements of magnets as you find it also on all the motors which have an encoder which you can buy out there.
Ok thanks for the clarification. But I too a look at the GB 4106 T-Motor again and could not figure out how to mount the magnet on the stator side. There seems to be no axle, only a "hole". So in this case I would need to print a 3d part which fits through the center hole of the motor, use two screws on the rotor to make the part turn and mount the magnet on the stator side (on a fixed position)?

As I already mentioned above I took a look and compared some different motors. Mainly the ones from JD Power due to the convienience of the already mounted ring magnets. However the forces of the JD motors seem pretty high considernig the motor sizes. What do you think? I then tried to choose the right motors for each axis. As you said they should be different as for ex. the yaw motor has to do the most "work". For the tilt motor I have choosen the smallest JD with a maximum force of 1,0 kg*cm (for comparision the GB4106 only has 0,8kg*cm) in order to save some weight. I then choose the 4621F for roll. However the weight seems not so logical to me. Why is this motor heavier than the 4820C? Makes no sense to me. So if the weight of the roll motor is really 125g I'll go with the 4820c both for roll and yaw which has 116g and 2,6kg*cm of force. What do you think?


Quick Reply
Message:

Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Category Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Cool T-STorM32: The best STorM32 ever !? OlliW Multirotor Drone Talk 2 Feb 21, 2017 05:02 PM