Bristol Scout - RC Groups
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Jan 16, 2017, 11:18 AM
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Bristol Scout


Dear Fellow WW I Scale Drawing Lovers:

The PIPE Here...for quite a long time, especially ever since my late RC Scale flying colleague Hank Iltzsch first got into WW I RC Giants, his first-ever effort was, to that time at the end of the 1970s, the rarely-done Bristol Scout single-engined candidate as a pioneering British scout/pursuit design going into military service in 1914-15.

Hank's RC Giant scale construction article for his Bristol Scout D appeared in the March and April 1981 issues of the AMA's Model Aviation magazine. His Scout D plans have been continuously available from Muncie ever since...they are available as AMA Plan no. 328, and currently cost USD $24.00.

As Hank left us several years ago, he did provide me before his passing with some very nice pieces of shared scale info regarding both the Scout D and its immediate predecessor, the Scout C. Some 161 examples of the Scout C and 210 examples of the later Scout D were built, which saw service with both the Royal Flying Corps of the British Army (87 Scout Cs and 130 Scout Ds) and the Royal Naval Air Service (74 Scout Cs and 80 Scout Ds).

Since Hank's passing, the Bremner family of the UK has given the lovers of the Bristol Scout an immense wealth of documentation through their effort, as a family, to construct a flying reproduction of their grandfather's RNAS Scout C aircraft, which bore British military serial number 1264, and flew missions in the Eastern Mediterranean theater. Their ongoing blog about "Rebuilding Grandad's Aircraft" is something I've been saving particular pieces of scale info from, and I'll be sharing some of these helpful "screencap-ped" drawings and photos as this thread goes onward. The Bremners had the joystick, rudder bar and a Bosch "starting magneto" (much like the Fokker D.VII itself used) from their grandpa's Scout C No. 1264 that he'd retained as souvenirs, never dreaming that his descendants would build a flying reproduction of his own beloved No. 1264 Bristol Scout, incorporating those "souvenirs" as operational components of an all-new Scout C reproduction.

For its start, I'm sharing the ten-sheet set of scale drawings done by the late Stanley Teachman from New York State that, I believe, the Bremners shared with me a few years ago. These have a wealth of info to "get us started", and many more details are to follow, especially in regards to the earliest versions of the Scout C that the RFC received as 1915 got going...

...that's because I'm intending to do Lanoe Hawker's No. 1611 aircraft someday as my first RC Giant Scale WW I design. It's currently only a CAD drawing project on my home PC, done primarily with info from Windsock Datafile No.44 (get a copy of it, if one's planning an RC Giant version of one's own...!) and from Hank's shared info. The Bremners' Bristol Scout blog IS one to read with interest, and an eye to finding scale info to do up a proper Bristol Scout...

...so "here goes" with the Teachman-done drawings for it!

Thanks in advance and Yours Sincerely,

The PIPE......!!
Last edited by The PIPE; Jan 16, 2017 at 11:55 AM.
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Jan 16, 2017, 01:18 PM
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Pipe man,

Have not seen any good Bristol Scout drawings since Teachman's interior view appeared in WWI Aero. WWI Aero's editor , Leo Opdyke, also built a very exacting Scout repro, which is, IIRC, now in the Imperial War Museum. It was Leo who noted how looking at Teachman's Scout effort was like revisiting his notable project. It is my understanding that Teachman used Leo's extensive original Bristol research.

I plan to look into your offering at soonest opportunity. However, I'm having some difficulty opening it, as presented here. This, i'm going to assume is MY fault, as it's presenting in a way that is entirely new to me and is asking if I want to "save", "save as" etc., instead of just "open". IAM EXCITED at the prospect! Computer logic still eludes me!

So thanks again, I think and hope!

BTW- I recall that another set of Scout 3-views appeared in an early WWI Aero. Will try to locate and post here too.
Jan 16, 2017, 04:25 PM
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The Pipe,
Thanks for those highly detailed drawings. The files opened for me just fine. You could build a full scale Scout with these.
Stan
Jan 16, 2017, 04:36 PM
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Packardpursuit,

Here is what I get clicking on one of the files.
Jan 16, 2017, 05:12 PM
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Those ARE Adobe "PDF" files that S. Teachman's drawings are on, by the way...


Dear packardpursuit:

The PIPE Here again...all of the Stanley Teachman Bristol Scout drawings I most likely got from the Bremners in the UK ARE of the Adobe Systems-created "PDF" file specification, known BY that file suffix of "xxx.pdf" wherever you see a computer file-name ending with that trio of letters. That ".pdf" file suffix is an "acronym" for "portable document format", meant to be readable over the widest range possible of computer systems (PC/Windows, Mac, Linux, etc) with nothing else needed to read them, except the Adobe Acrobat reader software, FREEly available from Adobe Systems as a downloadable software program to install on your PC, to view graphics and other document files that use the ".pdf" suffix..

So, when I read about what you were asking...

Quote:
Originally Posted by packardpursuit
I plan to look into your offering at soonest opportunity. However, I'm having some difficulty opening it, as presented here. This, i'm going to assume is MY fault, as it's presenting in a way that is entirely new to me and is asking if I want to "save", "save as" etc., instead of just "open"...
...the NO-cost-to-you Adobe Reader sofware is exactly what you're going to need!

Actually, I HAVE spoken to Leo many, many times as he was building his own fullscale Bristol Scout D through the 1970s and 80s towards its few flights he got with it at Old Rhinebeck...from what I remember, it actually ended up in "bare-bones" status with the UK's Fleet Air Arm museum in Yeovilton as its intended "home across the pond", though it could have been accessioned to another of the sizable number of British aviation museums they seem to have no end of !!!

More drawings (including some VERY informative Bristol Scout C FACTORY drawings!) are coming later this week...on Wednesday of this week, I'm starting on a re-take of the first of two SolidWorks "solid modeler" software college courses to refresh my CAD knowledge for work. I've been unemployed since the recession of 2008, and to be able to afford a few RC Giant Scalers, all with FOUR-stroke power running on methanol, I DO have to get back to work, and updating my CAD software knowledge is critical to achieving that!

Hope you can get Adobe Reader downloaded and installed in your computer to be able to see all that's on the ten-sheet set of Teachman-drawn Bristol Scout drawings...a LOT of what's here at RCGroups for downloadable model construction plans are already IN "PDF file" form, and my copy of Adobe Reader works just fine!

Best of luck in gettin' it in there...

Yours Sincerely,

The PIPE....!!
Last edited by The PIPE; Jan 16, 2017 at 08:18 PM.
Jan 17, 2017, 12:01 AM
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Dankeschön

Gruß
Hans-Jürgen
Jan 17, 2017, 11:15 AM
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Pipe...
Thanks for uploading those drawings. They are spectacular! That is one of the best drawing sets I have ever seen and I've got a lot of drawings in my collection.
Jan 17, 2017, 06:44 PM
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OK! Got the adobe reader installed. Thanks for the heads-up and help.

Definitely a superior drawing effort. And yes, one could build a VERY decent/accurate Scout from these, in any scale/size. Every bit as good as the very best of Westburg, etc.!

Isn't it better to know where an aileron hinge line (or ANY detail, for that matter)actually is instead of " best guessing"????

IIRC, there was a 1/4 scale effort also seen in pages of WWI Aero where the builder reported the scale airfoil didn't want to "work", even at the relatively large scale. He eventually padded the top of the ribs to thicken the airfoil slightly, which according to him improved the flight charateristics. Again, IIRC, he reported the model wanted to" hunt" in pitch with scale airfoil. Since this is the same airfoil found on the Bristol F2 Fighters, which seem to fly decent enough at 1/6 scale, I wonder if there were other issues, such as warps or localized disturbed airflow ?? It's also possible the model flexed under certain aerodynamic conditions???
Jan 17, 2017, 09:41 PM
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I've got the WHOLE story on what you're hinting at...I was an eyewitness to it all!


Dear packardpursuit:

The PIPE Here again - due to a snafu at my local college that was out of my control, that SolidWorks course I'd dearly love to take MIGHT have to wait until next autumn , but I'll still go to the initial lab/lecture of the coursw with all my paperwork, and I COULD get in the class if someone else drops out of it...

...but as to what you were hinting at with this part of your reply...

Quote:
Originally Posted by packardpursuit
IIRC, there was a 1/4 scale effort also seen in pages of WWI Aero where the builder reported the scale airfoil didn't want to "work", even at the relatively large scale. He eventually padded the top of the ribs to thicken the airfoil slightly, which according to him improved the flight charateristics. Again, IIRC, he reported the model wanted to" hunt" in pitch with scale airfoil. Since this is the same airfoil found on the Bristol F2 Fighters, which seem to fly decent enough at 1/6 scale, I wonder if there were other issues, such as warps or localized disturbed airflow ?? It's also possible the model flexed under certain aerodynamic conditions???
...when I spotted THAT, I know what COULD have been "that account", and it's that VERY similar-sounding account from page 18 onwards in the March 1981 Model Aviation that I'll be replying with by this weekend...Hank Iltzsch's own account of the whole "airfoil headache" affair with his Scout D, one of which I was an honest eyewitness to sooo many years ago!

It's gonna take some time to get it together as a complete "text reply" from the "roughly parallel" AMA magazine article that chronicled it, but you'll like it, with my usual clarifications in [brackets] so a 21st century audience can understand it a bit easier...

...'til then, I sincerely hope to get into that oh-SO-important "solid modeling" 3D CAD class at my local college, THIS winter and spring, without having to wait for autumn to get here...

Yours Sincerely,

The PIPE.... & great to hear that you've got Adobe Reader working on your PC!!
Last edited by The PIPE; Jan 18, 2017 at 07:04 AM.
Jan 18, 2017, 08:03 AM
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Some original RIGGING drawings for the Scout...


Dear Fellow Bristol Scout Fans at RCG:

The PIPE Here again - while I'm completing the text story that I've named "Hank's Airfoil Headache" from the "part one" text of his March 1981 Model Aviation magazine model construction article (the second part's in the April 1981 issue), I found the time to post up some original early-WW I era RIGGING docs for setting up a Bristol Scout C or D version for full-scale flight. The "Hank's Airfoil Headache" story will be attached as a Microsoft Word file, so the appropriate photos for it can be much more easily included.

My own developing CAD drawing set for Lanoe Hawker's No. 1611 Scout C, done on DesignCAD 3DMax v.25 for Windows 10 64-bit operating systems, will most likely, initially while I'm still drafting it up, be using the 2.0º incidence angle - the "midpoint" of the specified 1-3/4º to 2-1/4º range for incidence settings from the third sheet - for what could be considered a "bulged Barnwell" version of the original "flat-topped" scale Coanda I airfoil that Hank had so much trouble with...a future post of mine in this thread will compare the full-scale original, my "bulged Barnwell" take on it, the Pietenpol Air Camper's airfoil and Hank's similar-looking ISA-961 airfoil choices with each other. The "Pete" American homebuilt classic is going to be my first-ever 25 cm = 1 meter, classic 1/4th size RC Giant Scaler, for CH spark-conversion Saito 91 power, strictly on methanol, as with ALL my RC Giants for future consideration.

Anyway, here are the Bristol factory's rigging drawings for the Scout C & D series...the lower-dihedral setting for the C version is mentioned on there quite prominently, by the way.

More to come in the near future...

Yours Sincerely,

The PIPE....!!
Last edited by The PIPE; Jan 18, 2017 at 10:34 AM.
Jan 18, 2017, 08:05 PM
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Just a quick one...here's "Hank's Airfoil Headache" for your enjoyment...


Dear Fellow RC-Groupers:

The PIPE Here yet again...good news on the college course front, as I managed to get registered for the "SolidWorks Part I" course , so before I get too busy with my upcoming college coursework to post the story Hank told about his RC Giant Scale Bristol Scout-related airfoil quandaries the better part of 40 years ago...

...here's "Hank's Airfoil Headache" as I read it, from page 18 of the March 1981 AMA magazine, again, with my clarifications in [brackets]...enjoy!

Yours Sincerely,

The PIPE....!!
Jan 19, 2017, 02:51 PM
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These 3-view drawings, by Stan Brennan, appeared in an early WWI Aero. Photos and scketches too. Note how the prototype drawing shows no dihedral. Yet, the photos show some rigged in. Quite a bit more in latter versions.

Sorry about the poor copy but that's how I got them. Drawings themselves look to be fairely decent, as to accuracy.
Jan 19, 2017, 08:39 PM
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I DID "upright" the seventh one for you...


Dear packardpursuit:

The PIPE Here again — on Friday Jan.19th, after a decent internal cleanout of the dust in my home PC's innards (compressed-air cans and a used toothbrush for a lot of it!), I'll be getting down to the exercises for my "SolidWorks Pt.1" college course, installing a "student" version of the Dassault Systemes SolidWorks environment, and getting re-acquainted with "distance learning" once more...

...but before all that starts, just thought I'd let you know that I've attached an "uprighted" and very slightly improved version of your "Scout 007" file from the previous post...and for "scan no.6", the three-views in Windsock Datafile No.44 on the Bristol Scout series (which I've got) states that the "three-rib tallest rudder" for the Scout D was meant especially for a test of the 100 hp Gnôme Type 9B-2 Monosoupape rotary mill in a Scout D airframe, due to it being the highest output rotary the Scout was ever going to be tested with.

The English language Wikipedia article has a good volume of info from Datafile No.44, including the photos...a "Wikimedia" page with additional photos also exists, with more photos, some that I got from the Datafile as well...not to mention that I wrote the first "serious improvement" of it just over a decade ago.

Hope these help...I've also attached some of Hank's photos of the RC Giant Bristols he'd done in his time... the "third one" MIGHT have that beast of a Canadian "gasser mill" in it, the Quadra Q35, for its power!

'Til then, Yours Sincerely,

...from The PIPE....!!
Last edited by The PIPE; Jan 19, 2017 at 09:04 PM.
Feb 03, 2017, 04:32 PM
Registered User
Pipe,
Wow, this answers some questions I had about the way the cowling fares into the fuse. Currently building the sheet wing version that Whitehead did in the '70s. Thank's for taking the time to post this!

Chuck
Feb 28, 2017, 03:53 AM
WMD
WMD
Womble of Model Depiction
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These are great drawing, thanks the Pipe. Any chance of supplying PDFs that are unlocked for editing? These are password protected.

Steve


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