10 rater class in the USA - Page 11 - RC Groups
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Sep 09, 2017, 10:04 AM
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The Walicki boat in the picture is a Partner. Yes generally a Marblehead rated as a 10 rater can carry up to 1500 square inches of sail area, which is a lot. Looking forward to seeing Murrys boat next month at the lake with it's 10 rater rig. Ryan
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Sep 12, 2017, 12:33 PM
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Well, in the '70s Central Park had quite a few converted Marbleheads (Ms were our main class at the time) that were quite fast in our small pond with the typical light winds. Central Park Pond is in a kind of basin, I guess the designers of the park pond were not sailors.

I was one of the guys who could sail my boat as an M boat for Marblehead races, and as a 10R for a 10R race. A member of the club back then, a gentleman named Foster, designed and made a "real" 10Rater, the "Big Wind". It was competitive, particularly when the wind picked up, but too large for our pond really.

Generally, my opinion, is the 10Rater Class should be for 10Rs, the M Class should be for Ms. I would venture that, with a few exceptions, the US sailing lakes and ponds rarely have winds topping 10 mph. In the UK they have ponds designed for sailing model yachts, without trees around, on shorelines, on elevated ground, with clear wind access. Big, powerful sailboats are at home in these ponds. When, at Eisenhower Park (one of the bigger ponds in the NYC area) hosted the Worlds for the Ms, one of the comments that was made to me by a British competitor, "In this wind we go golfing".

I have a lot of respect for Bill Hagerup, if anyone can revive the 10Rater Class here I am sure he can. Now, as an example, the Scalpel pretty much ruined the Marblehead Class in the US. It raised the bar in both performance and expense. Other factors helped in the waning of participation in Ms. My point is, that the "real" 10Rs are a budding Class again in the US. If converted Scalpels do for 10Rs what it did for the Marblehead Class then the 10rs could be nipped in the bud!

Therefore, while converting M boats to 10Rs may sound like a good idea to grow participation in 10rs, it is a double edge sword. If the majority in the US
10r Class is basically Ms with lots of sail, then is it really going to be a 10Rater Class? "Oh, they qualify!", do they?, as what? Marblehead/10R hybrid?

I say keep the Classes separate.
Sep 12, 2017, 02:44 PM
Registered User

10 Rater "BIG WIND".


Designer of the BIG WIND was Forrest Godby. He had done an M called "WIND" (I built and sailed one for a couple of seasons.) He scaled "WIND" up to a longer LWL and BIG WIND the 10-Rater was the result. At the time the class was in decline, so BIG WIND didn't get a fair hearing on the water, unless there is some local history that we can uncover at this late date.

I think we have the lines of WIND somewhere hereabouts, and they might be used as a basis for a revived version of BIG WIND.
Sep 12, 2017, 03:37 PM
Registered User
Dick L.'s Avatar
I might have lines published in late1980's(????) in one of the older model magazines.

I reduced lines to allow for a 36 in LOA strip built version of WIND but not sure if it's the same boat, or a name someone grabbed and used.

Given the number of years and number of boats built, it is possible a name could easily be used by multiple owners on multiple designs. Holler if you can't find and I'll see if I can locate in my old stuff. If I have it, I recall it's probably for a Marblehead..........Not a 10R
Sep 13, 2017, 03:37 AM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by Niel1055
Now, as an example, the Scalpel pretty much ruined the Marblehead Class in the US. It raised the bar in both performance and expense. Other factors helped in the waning of participation in Ms. My point is, that the "real" 10Rs are a budding Class again in the US. If converted Scalpels do for 10Rs what it did for the Marblehead Class then the 10rs could be nipped in the bud!

Therefore, while converting M boats to 10Rs may sound like a good idea to grow participation in 10rs, it is a double edge sword. If the majority in the US
10r Class is basically Ms with lots of sail, then is it really going to be a 10Rater Class? "Oh, they qualify!", do they?, as what? Marblehead/10R hybrid?

I say keep the Classes separate.
I could not disagree more im afraid Niel on your last comment...

Why would anyone discourage skippers getting their old boats back out of the loft to race in a class where they are perfectly legal? It is quite simple that a well designed and built 10 Rater should near always beat a Marblehead with a larger sail area in all but the lightest of winds. Over the course of an event this usually shows out. As there is very little 10R organised racing currently being held in most parts why would you not welcome numbers to your fleets? 2 day events, one day Ms and the following for 10Rs? If an M occasionally wins a light air event, so what?

Very little chance of a Scalpel or any M doing anything to a true 10R class other than putting more boats on the water. As for the risk of a design ruining something through performance and expense, that risk will never leave you if you resign yourself to only buying abroad instead of designing and manufacturing something equal if not better yourselves by working hard. It does take commitment though but in a country so rich in talent is puzzles me why there are very few, if any, builders and designers in any of the International classes over the last decade and longer?

Anyways, looking forward to racing my 22 year old pimped Bantock Paradox Marblehead design this coming weekend in our final 2 day ranking event of 2017. Plenty of good older designs out there that were put in the outdated bin far before their time with better performance than the Scalpel/Partner at a fraction of the cost needing minimal upgrades to be competitive........Dust them off and go sailing!
Sep 13, 2017, 11:33 AM
Registered User

Big wind reborn


So this morning I get an inquiry from Carl Brosius of SFMYC inquiring about new sails for a 10 Rater - - - the 1978 Class Champion, a BIG WIND from Forest Godby!!!! How weird is that!!! He has no rigging left, but can measure the deck points. So it seems we need to do a little digging to see if we can find enough data to reproduce the original sail plan. Can anyone help?
Sep 13, 2017, 12:01 PM
Registered User
Well Brad, I respect your opinion. You are a great sailor and and a top designer.

I have been designing competitive Marbleheads for 35 years. I would also point out that we do have good designers in the US, it is just that our ponds are few and far between. As a result to get to multiple day events usually means air flights, a real hassle since 9/11. Weather is a problem too. Hurricane season in Florida and Texas (two really active locations) is in the fall so Championships held down South are held in January and February. We in the Northern part of the country are still frozen over in those months. Kind of puts us at a bit of a disadvantage.

I don't find IOMs very interesting because my main focus has been on swing rigs and boats designed specifically to sport my rigs. I also have been involved in Footy development. I sail once in a while in a mountain lake roughly 7 miles long and 1/2 mile wide. The lake's waves build up in the afternoon to a foot or two and in a close frequency. My American 36/600 and DF65 struggle in the whitecaps, but my Footy has a ball. Climbing and surfing the waves, fitting right in the troughs and rising over the peaks without loosing flow over the sails. It is a sight to see.

Back to Ms as 10rs. It is well for you to support dusting off old Ms back in service. And you point out that when the wind picks up they are no longer really competitive. In the US, light winds dominate our race courses. The "real" 10raters that you sail in Britain would just float around while M converts breeze by. Maybe my mountain lake would be more to your liking although it can go for days without a breath of air, and a deluge of rain.

That is why I advocate keeping the classes separate, so one type doesn't have an advantage depending on sailing site.
Sep 13, 2017, 01:01 PM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Gibson

[snip]

As for the risk of a design ruining something through performance and expense, that risk will never leave you if you resign yourself to only buying abroad instead of designing and manufacturing something equal if not better yourselves by working hard. It does take commitment though but in a country so rich in talent is puzzles me why there are very few, if any, builders and designers in any of the International classes over the last decade and longer?

[snip]
The answer is simple, and it comes from Frank Bethwaite: the study of sailing begins with a study of the wind. From that perspective, the winning International designs are not really international, they are optimized for the sailing conditions within 45 degrees of latitude to the poles and no more than 50 km from an ocean, because that's where World Championships mostly take place.

There are practically no venues in the United States that duplicate the conditions regularly seen at Fleetwood and Gosport; only Foster City on San Francisco Bay comes close. So a designer has the choice of designing a boat that wins in year round local competition or one that has a chance in a once a year World Championship. Most people choose the former. A (say) UK designer has the luxury that local competitions duplicate what his boat is likely to encounter in a Capital I International event and all his observations and tuning experience are relevant. That is not the case for most if not all US designers.

This situation is illustrated most clearly in the history of the American attempts to win the Yachting Monthly Cup. In the 1920's and 1930's there were only two venues in the United States that came close to Fleetwood or Gosport: Storrow Drive in Boston and Berkeley. Both are now defunct. American boats were chosen, generally, by a rigorous set of qualifying competitions and were still regularly trounced by the UK boats. And I think it is no coincidence that when the (surrogate) cup was won by an American in 1949 it was a Boston boat that did it.

I confess to being mildly amused by the complaints about the sailing conditions for the UK Championship. I sail at a pond in the high desert, 6000 feet above sea level and hundreds of miles from the nearest ocean. All wind motion is thermal and highly localized. Velocities under 5 kt are common. If you refuse to sail in light air with constant shifts of direction then you won't sail at all.

Cheers,

Earl
Sep 13, 2017, 03:27 PM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by Niel1055
Well Brad, I respect your opinion. You are a great sailor and and a top designer.

I have been designing competitive Marbleheads for 35 years. I would also point out that we do have good designers in the US, it is just that our ponds are few and far between. As a result to get to multiple day events usually means air flights, a real hassle since 9/11. Weather is a problem too. Hurricane season in Florida and Texas (two really active locations) is in the fall so Championships held down South are held in January and February. We in the Northern part of the country are still frozen over in those months. Kind of puts us at a bit of a disadvantage.

I don't find IOMs very interesting because my main focus has been on swing rigs and boats designed specifically to sport my rigs. I also have been involved in Footy development. I sail once in a while in a mountain lake roughly 7 miles long and 1/2 mile wide. The lake's waves build up in the afternoon to a foot or two and in a close frequency. My American 36/600 and DF65 struggle in the whitecaps, but my Footy has a ball. Climbing and surfing the waves, fitting right in the troughs and rising over the peaks without loosing flow over the sails. It is a sight to see.

Back to Ms as 10rs. It is well for you to support dusting off old Ms back in service. And you point out that when the wind picks up they are no longer really competitive. In the US, light winds dominate our race courses. The "real" 10raters that you sail in Britain would just float around while M converts breeze by. Maybe my mountain lake would be more to your liking although it can go for days without a breath of air, and a deluge of rain.

That is why I advocate keeping the classes separate, so one type doesn't have an advantage depending on sailing site.
Niel, being Australian and having been lucky enough to travel and sail in the States I am well aware of the logistical nightmares of distance to be covered for events. Never easy but also never something that can not be overcome if the will is there. No matter the class though, if you find yourself locked in one specific venue and conditions you will wither away.
I feel there is a pretty blinkered/distorted view of the conditions experienced here in the UK. Not every lake or championship is Fleetwood or West Kirby in open water. We have our fair share of duck ponds here also which tests designers and skippers in all conditions, not just heavy stuff. I think the results in this can be seen in the performances of UK designs over a good many years in all parts of the world, not just locally. I would counter that competitive 10Rs may have changed a little since you last saw them race yet if one was that soundly beaten by an up rated Marblehead in conditions you regularly sail in, then its not a well optimised 10R.....

Earl with respect I might suggest the days of one trick pony designs are less prevalent in International classes as they may have been in the past. In the M multiple keel weights are no longer seen like the days of the Skalpel. It may surprise that the last 3 Marblehead Worlds have seen only one day in 18 where rigs lower than C suit have been used. In France 2012 we drifted around for the best part of a week in glass out conditions. In 2014 Netherlands we had one day of lower rig conditions but largely light A rig racing. Last year in Garda we had A and B rig racing in open water. What happened? The same winning designs stood out with same rigs and same bulb weights across the full range. The one trick ponies were beaten soundly at each event including in their favored conditions... Whether it be the pond in Mission Bay SD, Foster City, Ft Lauderdale or Bass Pro in Texas, I would use the same rigs fin and bulb on my Marblehead or 10 Rater without fear.

I don't doubt for one minute the availability of designer talent you have there for anyone keen enough to unlock the keys to good International class design optimisation where you can produce something that can win and compete with the best anywhere, in any conditions. It can be done and does not always require the latest equipment. The challenge is there.

It does however seem ironic that the design regarded by most as ruining the class there was not a US based design built for local conditions...
Last edited by Brad Gibson; Sep 13, 2017 at 03:33 PM. Reason: added text
Sep 13, 2017, 03:59 PM
Registered User
I defer to your experience and expertise, but remain skeptical. In any case, the number of people who would take the time to design in this country is in decline, even for the IOM class.

Cheers,

Earl
Sep 13, 2017, 04:01 PM
Thomas Armstrong
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Gibson
... the design regarded by most as ruining the class there ...
This should be taken with a grain of salt - there is no such thing as a design that ruins a class. There are lots of boat owners that blindly buy "this year's winning boat" and forget that most important part of the equation is the sailor: rigging, tuning, tactics and having trained thumbs.

I am seeing the same effect in the RG65 class with the "Skinny": Pedro Stier designed it and started winning everything, now half the local fleet is Skinny's. Now after 3-4 years the same skippers are buying newer designs (i.e. "Scurry") and passing the 3-4 year "old" Skinny's down to other skippers. the class is not being "destroyed", but taken to a higher level!

If some class entry numbers are decreasing, don't blame the boat! Blame sailors for being too conservative (not happily accepting new skippers and designs on the water) or aggressive (not explaining rules to younger skippers, not helping them tune their boats, etc.). And don't forget to blame organizers also, for not getting the job done properly (bad venues, not enough awareness, not publishing race notices 6+ months before the date, changing venue days before the event, etc).
Sep 13, 2017, 04:33 PM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by tarmstro
This should be taken with a grain of salt - there is no such thing as a design that ruins a class. There are lots of boat owners that blindly buy "this year's winning boat" and forget that most important part of the equation is the sailor: rigging, tuning, tactics and having trained thumbs.

I am seeing the same effect in the RG65 class with the "Skinny": Pedro Stier designed it and started winning everything, now half the local fleet is Skinny's. Now after 3-4 years the same skippers are buying newer designs (i.e. "Scurry") and passing the 3-4 year "old" Skinny's down to other skippers. the class is not being "destroyed", but taken to a higher level!

If some class entry numbers are decreasing, don't blame the boat! Blame sailors for being too conservative (not happily accepting new skippers and designs on the water) or aggressive (not explaining rules to younger skippers, not helping them tune their boats, etc.). And don't forget to blame organizers also, for not getting the job done properly (bad venues, not enough awareness, not publishing race notices 6+ months before the date, changing venue days before the event, etc).
Correct Thomas. Those of us that continue to support open design classes know that, along with knowing those that win rarely do with inferior equipment. There is something there for all levels.
Sep 13, 2017, 06:19 PM
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Dick L.'s Avatar
To add to Thomas's suggestions.....especially to the race organizers...........

I've never seen so many skippers that are included in the federal Witness Protection Program!

Considering there are seldom names associated with photos of participants and to a lesser degree the winners of the event.......it does a disservice to those who couldn't make the event due to costs, illness, travel, family events and committments and new owners not to identify those that participated. All it takes is an effort to include the owner's name with his/her photo so one can identify who they were talking to or racing against. Yea, I know the race commitee is busy, but most modern digital cameras and smart phones have the abilty to record verbal information immediately after the photo is taken. Makes it nice to recognize people.

Just a thought to consider.
Sep 14, 2017, 07:44 AM
AMYA 10Rater Class Secretary
All interesting discussion, and I'm very pleased to see this thread attended by some of the best in the world....thanks all.

Brad, I have a picture somewhere of you looking over my Footy at Birkenhead in 2008. I'd like to think my design skills have improved a bit since then :-) My first venture into the international classes is my Sabre IOM...3D printed and being sailed with good success by Selwyn Holland. There will be more to come.

Our first 10R regatta in the Northeast was held Saturday on Lily Pond in Gilford, NH. What our pond lacks in amenities is made up by the open water and long shoreline, making it a great venue for anything from Footys to Ten Raters.

We had only 6 entries, but it's a start...a mixed bag of Ms and Tomohawks, with one scratchbuilt 10R. Unfortunately, wind was light and variable, so the boats couldn't show off their speed. Still, it was great to see those tall rigs gliding along. We will do it again next season, and hopefully, get a few more boats. A good time was had by all, and there was definitely a feeling of excitement seeing these beauties on the pond.

First place was won by Cliff Martin from MA sailing a Tomohawk with 16 points. Second was Chris Hornick from RI with his re-rated Bob Stern-rigged M Graffito, one point behind Cliff. I (Bill Hagerup) took third with my re-rated M modified Toast and 30 points.

Here's a few pics (thanks Sheila.) The lineup is Cliff (sail 01) Chris (85) Bill (427) and Alain (049.)
Last edited by mudhenk27; Sep 14, 2017 at 07:52 AM.
Sep 14, 2017, 07:54 AM
AMYA 10Rater Class Secretary
All interesting discussion, and I'm very pleased to see this thread attended by some of the best in the world....thanks all.

Brad, I have a picture somewhere of you looking over my Footy at Birkenhead in 2008. I'd like to think my design skills have improved a bit since then :-) My first venture into the international classes is my Sabre IOM...3D printed and being sailed with good success by Selwyn Holland. There will be more to come.

Our first 10R regatta in the Northeast was held Saturday on Lily Pond in Gilford, NH. What our pond lacks in amenities is made up by the open water and long shoreline, making it a great venue for anything from Footys to Ten Raters.

We had only 6 entries, but it's a start...a mixed bag of Ms and Tomohawks, with one scratchbuilt 10R. Unfortunately, wind was light and variable, so the boats couldn't show off their speed. Still, it was great to see those tall rigs gliding along. We will do it again next season, and hopefully, get a few more boats. A good time was had by all, and there was definitely a feeling of excitement seeing these beauties on the pond.

First place was won by Cliff Martin from MA sailing a Tomohawk with 16 points. Second was Chris Hornick with his re-rated Bob Stern-rigged M Graffito, one point behind Cliff. I (Bill Hagerup) took third with my re-rated M modified Toast and 30 points. Other skippers were Herb Dreher, Ronnie Jones, and Alain Jousse.

Here's a few pics (thanks Sheila.)


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