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Jul 06, 2016, 09:24 AM
Blue Sky Mining
batballs's Avatar
Help!

Mystery pylon model - F5D?? - not a P5


Does anyone recognise this plane??

I bought this unbuilt Pylon model from RCTrader, described as an Ariane P5 but there seemed a few differences in the photo. On arrival I compared it to published 3 views and the manual and it's not a P5.
It's a good looking model with Kevlar fuse and hollow moulded wing. Fibreglass with carbon reinforcing I believe (not full carbon like the P5).
I'd like to build it but I want to know what it's capable of and get some setup info.
I was planning to run a 1w30 4400kV but not sure now.

Vital stats are:
Wingspan. 1015mm. 40"
Chord. 128mm. 5"
Fuse length (no spinner). 590mm. 23.3"
Firewall to leading edge. 105mm. 4.3"
Airframe weight. 200g. 7oz.
Spinner size (uncut). 30mm

Does anyone know what it is??
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Jul 06, 2016, 09:47 AM
"Have that removed!"
KRProton's Avatar
Sorry, I can't help you I don't know what the plane is, but judging by the colors and paint job looks like Sergey Sobakin all the way. Maybe that'll give you a clue.

Tim
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Jul 06, 2016, 10:18 AM
Blue Sky Mining
batballs's Avatar
Wow. That was quick work. I followed your tip, Tim, and a search quickly led to the Avionik D-99. The right size and shape wing and the same distinctive tail and boom. http://www.icare-rc.com/avionik_d99.htm
Good thing is that it is built for the same motor as the P5 so I should be able to go ahead as planned.
Many Thanks.
Last edited by batballs; Jul 06, 2016 at 11:03 AM.
Jul 06, 2016, 11:00 AM
Caution:Makes sharp left turns
Troy's Avatar
Yeah, D-99. If you plan on putting more than 800 watts or so, be sure to tape the aileron tips to prevent flutter. Sounds weird, I know, but this is what we all did when we raced that airframe back in the olden days

https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...ps#post8521615
Last edited by Troy; Jul 06, 2016 at 11:07 AM.
Jul 06, 2016, 09:32 PM
Blue Sky Mining
batballs's Avatar
I read about taping the tips when I was researching the P5 so I will definitely do that even for lower power levels.

With a 1W30 4400kV up front and a 110A speedy I'll start on 3S and a 4.1 x 4.1 and move up from there (if I can handle it ) with bigger props and maybe 4S. I wonder if the motor can handle a 4.7 x 5.5 ?? I've ordered some so I guess I'll find out

PS do people generally cut cooling holes in these things?
Jul 18, 2016, 09:51 AM
Blue Sky Mining
batballs's Avatar

More advice anyone.


I'm putting together all the components and it looks like I should be able to get it together at under 700g using D09AMDs and a 2600mAh ASpec Turnigy 3S LiPo.

The problem I've found is that the trailing edge (drag spar?) facing the elevator and ailerons has curled up (see photo of elevator) and I'm trying to work out how to get it straight again. The ailerons aren't too bad but the elevator is the worst; I'm concerned it could promote flutter.

I'm considering running ca along the inside while I hold it straight or possibly line the inside with some splooge to reinforce it. The other approach might be to heat it with a covering iron and hold straight until it cools, similar to untwisting a wing. I'm favouring thin ca at this point.

Has anyone seen this before and if so how did you solve it?
Last edited by batballs; Jul 18, 2016 at 09:56 AM.
Jul 18, 2016, 03:33 PM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by Troy
Yeah, D-99. If you plan on putting more than 800 watts or so, be sure to tape the aileron tips to prevent flutter. Sounds weird, I know, but this is what we all did when we raced that airframe back in the olden days

https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...ps#post8521615
What kinds of speed does this bird attain at 800+ watts? Also, I've got a fast plane and was wondering if taping the ailerons would help me. The problem is I fly with 8mm up aileron, 6mm down aileron. Isn't that way too much throw to be able to work with a taped aileron? It seems like it would only work with tiny throws, a couple mm at max? i'd appreciate yours thoughts on the matter. Thanks!
Jul 18, 2016, 05:30 PM
Blue Sky Mining
batballs's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bird09
What kinds of speed does this bird attain at 800+ watts? Also, I've got a fast plane and was wondering if taping the ailerons would help me. The problem is I fly with 8mm up aileron, 6mm down aileron. Isn't that way too much throw to be able to work with a taped aileron? It seems like it would only work with tiny throws, a couple mm at max? i'd appreciate yours thoughts on the matter. Thanks!
Based on old threads you're looking at something around 300k/h or 180mph where the flutter starts. 8mm throws at that speed would turn the plane inside out! It will have about 2mm to 3mm throws based on this http://www.f5d.org/modelle/avionik_d.html

My setup potentially has 1400w if I go to 4s and is 20% lighter than the original design setup so I don't want to take any chances.

If your ailerons are flexible enough to be taped at the tips and flexed 6mm at the centre I think you'll definitely be in trouble if you don't tape them. But most modern planes have outboard servos so it's not as applicable.
Last edited by batballs; Jul 18, 2016 at 05:40 PM.
Jul 18, 2016, 05:36 PM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by batballs
Based on old threads you're looking at something around 300k/h or 180mph where the flutter starts. 8mm throws at that speed would turn the plane inside out! It will have about 2mm to 3mm throws based on this http://www.f5d.org/modelle/avionik_d.html

If your ailerons are flexible enough to be taped at the tips and flexed 6mm at the centre I think you'll definitely be in trouble if you don't tape them.
Well my Reverb hits an estimated 170mph. I just posted a vid in the Reverb thread so you can see if you think the speed is in that area or if I'm totally off. My ailerons at 8mm up, 6mm down are very controllable for me at full throttle. Just personal preference I'd imagine. I've always tended towards lots of aileron throw, despite the plane.

Taping is certainly something to think about, particularly with faster projects in the future. Thanks!
Jul 19, 2016, 12:28 AM
Blue Sky Mining
batballs's Avatar
Throws are very much airframe and CG dependant. My Rifle and Windburner both have similar throws at 2-3mm for normal flight (about 200kph measured) with higher rates for landing. Both are best flown smooth and will snap with too much elevator.
Jul 19, 2016, 07:54 AM
Registered User
You do not need those throws on this model.................and you will need to tape the ailerons if you are to avoid flutter.

Save yourself a lot of heartache and listen to some of the guys on here or look at old threads on this model, there are some very experienced D99 pilots on here.
Jul 19, 2016, 08:49 AM
Blue Sky Mining
batballs's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by GT2000
You do not need those throws on this model.................and you will need to tape the ailerons if you are to avoid flutter.

Save yourself a lot of heartache and listen to some of the guys on here or look at old threads on this model, there are some very experienced D99 pilots on here.
I'm not sure if you're referring to me or Bird09.
If anyone has any advice I'm all ears (and eyes!!!)

My intention for the D99 is small throws; 2mm low rates, 3 or 4mm high rates; and taped ailerons. The German F5D link above is the most complete spec I have found so I'm basing my set up on that.

I've been searching for D99 build threads but I suspect they are mostly so old they've been shut down. If you know any please post a link.

The other issue is cooling. I think I'll go with a NACA vent above the motor/ESC and a vent behind the wing.

The motor I have is a similar Kv, mass and current capability as the original Hacker and the flying weight will be about 20% lower than the original design, so it should fly OK.

I've got a lightweight 110A Waypoint ESC but don't intend going to that high a power output for a while. Does anyone have any experience with these? And a separate Matek 1.5A BEC.


I just need to sort out this issue with the curly edges in front of the elevator then I can put it all together.
Jul 19, 2016, 10:16 AM
Registered User
Hi it was Bird09 that I was referring to, 8mm on the ailerons of this model is just way too much and not even in the personal preference ball park.

The German site that you mention is spot on.

My advice would also be to not build the model too light. As a 7 cell Nimh model it was heavy but fast, probably too heavy and difficult to launch hence the design of the latest generation of models post 2004. If it is too light it will lack a bit of energy retention but adding weight is easier than taking it away and I am sure that experimentation will find a sweet spot.
Jul 19, 2016, 10:36 AM
Blue Sky Mining
batballs's Avatar
At about 700g it should have a similar wing loading to current F5D models so I'm hoping that helps keep launches uneventful until I get accustomed to it.
The lower weight is purely due to modern batteries; there's not much room left in the fuse, but I dare say there's more than many.

Bird was referring to a totally different model with his throws; the Reverb is more of a mini hotliner.
Jul 19, 2016, 05:09 PM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by GT2000
You do not need those throws on this model.................and you will need to tape the ailerons if you are to avoid flutter.

Save yourself a lot of heartache and listen to some of the guys on here or look at old threads on this model, there are some very experienced D99 pilots on here.
Well I don't own this model and won't be getting one in the future. Just asking about taped ailerons for my fast Reverb. I use 8mm up and 6mm down so that when I want to roll, I have an awesome roll rate since I like to fly the plane like a sport plane sometimes. For pylon turns, I only use a fraction of that aileron throw.


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