new diagram system LRK - dLRK - Evo dLRK - half parallel dLRK - RC Groups
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Feb 21, 2016, 01:08 AM
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new diagram system LRK - dLRK - Evo dLRK - half parallel dLRK


As I learn more about winding motors I make up some of my own techniques and diagrams.

One of the first issues is how to write something about a wind without drawing coils, which gets messy.

Then while looking at a picture with coiled wire indicating winding direction, this can be easily missed.

I returned to diagrams to learn the distinctions between the winding types. You know, it gets a little confusing sometimes.

Circles mean wind counterclockwise

Numbers inside show next tooth to wind unless there are arrows

Some things like starts and ends are inferred, nothing points to a start and numerical sequence naturally infers a start, ends don't point anywhere else.

Compare the flow/relationship between a wind we've been using, the order from one tooth to the next. ... to the end tooth.

Take for example, the Evolution dLRK

1 clockwise. ... goto 2 counterclockwise. .... then you see 2 inside the circle telling you to wind 7 ( counterclockwise ) .... then wind 8 clockwise. ...end



I was having problems getting motors wound right, decided to try dLRK and found I was making a mistake starting in the middle, so I started from the end of the wire and that was it, I have a nice smooth running 1244kv motor, then the hpdLRK wye came easy 1120kv and really efficient 

Among other mistakes : pulling too hard on wire, abraiding it on a tooth, tooling it too much or too rough, being in a hurry and just winding in the wrong direction, damaging insulation on the bolt jig I use now to hold the stator while winding, also when looking for shorts on say #1 you should connect to the other end of #1 as well and make sure your probe is connected by reading continuity, then leave probe on that end and check to ground otherwise you get a false indication


Hope this is a good reference and try this diagramming method


Leonard
Last edited by leonard3k; Feb 21, 2016 at 02:14 AM.
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Feb 21, 2016, 02:12 AM
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LRK first




I really mean for these to compliment or help winding and not to replace these first tested winding images.

The 1st images are like complete definition and description of the wind types, while the shorter black and white diagrams I refer to while winding to make sure not to miss winding directions on a tooth



Leonard
Last edited by leonard3k; Aug 20, 2016 at 02:27 PM.
Jun 14, 2016, 11:41 AM
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In an effort to collect all wind diagrams in one place, here is the 24n20p, apparently an expanded version of the 12n14p or 12n10p dLRK wind; no longer quite the formidable mystery that it was before.


dLRK 12 and 24 tooth scheme patterns copied directly from wind scheme calculator:

AabBCcaABbcC

AabBCcaABbcCAabBCcaABbcC



Skylars site with Winding Scheme Calculator

http://www.bavaria-direct.co.za/




Here is the specific page link for the Winding Scheme Calculator:

http://www.bavaria-direct.co.za/scheme/calculator/
Last edited by leonard3k; Jun 14, 2016 at 02:55 PM.
Jun 14, 2016, 12:02 PM
Jack
jackerbes's Avatar
Nice job Leonard!

We need to drag more of the youngsters into the Man Knitting community and I'll bet this page will help some of them get started.

There is no rush on it but don't forget the 24N22P motors and 24N28P motors like the MT5208 and MT8017.

And a link to Skylar's wonderful winding scheme image page would be good here too!

Jack
Jun 14, 2016, 02:29 PM
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Skylar's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by leonard3k
In an effort to collect all wind diagrams in one place, here is the 24n20p, apparently an expanded version of the 12n14p or 12n10p dLRK wind; no longer quite the formidable mystery that it was before...

And with a little workaround, it's even possible to come up with an "evo" version of the 24n20p Delta scheme.

Any volunteers?

Christo
Jun 14, 2016, 02:36 PM
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Skylar's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by leonard3k
...based on version 1.0 by Dr Maltese (DrM)
I think it is just Dr Malte.

Christo
Aug 20, 2016, 11:04 AM
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What's the Rm and current capacity of a specific motor wind:


In post 1 added is the hpdLRK adjacent coil wind that eliminates transits... neat.

Now after some trouble with a weak 2217 suppo motor, I've summarized Current capacity regarding wire size intended and Rm.

Clarifying my references with definition and examples:

Rm of LRK Wye is the resistance of 2 strands in series and total current flows through two strands so amp limit = 1 x wire rating.

dLRK wye is the same just having 4 coils per strand.

Half parallel dLRK wye because of the series parallel structure, 2 strands in parallel = half resistance of 1 strand then the one on the other side of the bundle makes total Rm equal to 1 strand. Current capacity is 2x the wire rating because of the parallel strands.

Now attacking the more tricky delta, the whole motor triangle is constantly energized. I consider one energized primary leg takes 2/3s total current and the secondary leg 2x strand resistance because of 2 strands in series, 1/3 total current. As relates to LRK and dLRK delta, 1.5x the wire rating for the expected amp load can be used. Rm = 2 / 3s of a strand.

Half parallel dLRK delta adds more to the figures, the same 2/3s total current goes through primary and 1/3 through secondary. Now because of the parallel strands, each strand of primary bears half of 2/3s current which is 1/3. .....so 3x wire rating is allowed and Rm = 1/3 of one strand.


Now lately as example I've been working on power systems using 3s 650kv 12 inch gws props expecting 2.5# to 3.5# thrust getting efficiency 7.5g / w to 9 grams per watt, so around 3# these are pulling 15 amps, liking roughly 30 oz per 100 watts.

So after problems with Suppo 2217 taking 16T for about 688kv hpdLRK wye, been kicking around new idea and for example an LRK wye might allow 16T for 655 kv and would fit now anticipating load up to 15 amps 16T of 19awg if it would fit under the rotor, would allow 1 x wire rating of 14 amps.

Additionally the Cobra 2820 / 16t 350 kv, if I rewind this hpdLRK wye 11T of 22awg 7 amps rated for 672 kv would allow 14 amps before starting to warm up with a 12 inch prop on 3s.

Leonard
Last edited by leonard3k; Aug 20, 2016 at 03:02 PM.
Aug 20, 2016, 11:43 AM
Jack
jackerbes's Avatar
"..Half parallel dLRK delta adds more to the figures..."

And one of the most important considerations is that it doubles the Kv of the same turn count done in dLRK.

But the reduced resistance and lowered current draw probably is also one of the reasons that it handles current so well, the reason that a dLRK wound motor that was sold as a 135W motor can sometimes be run at three times that when re-wound half parallel dLRK.

There are some flying venues that can use the higher Kv from a Delta terminated 2PdLRK (ducted fans, reduction geared drives, etc.) but the Wye terminated version will dominate where props are going to be used.

Jack
Mar 05, 2017, 09:52 AM
Registered User

Motors in a pic, current, turn factors, motor circuits


Hi Jack, Manuel, Skylar
Made this to summarize for friends who asked me about motor winding generally 12n14p
Last edited by leonard3k; Mar 05, 2017 at 09:59 AM.
Mar 05, 2017, 03:26 PM
Registered User

I see a red door and I want it painted black


... I like the black dots better

Now I used to wonder why double the turns for HPdLRK y ...

because like in electronics
capacitors add in parallel
resistors add in series
inductance adds in series --- halved in parallel if equal


The current on wye flows only thru 2 branches to the bundle in series and 3rd branch ... no current. Eight coils 100% energized at any one time

Current on delta is 2/3s thru short length, and 1/3 around the 2 legs in series. Four coils 100% energized and the other eight 50% energized because they'll have half the the resistance of the short leg in the delta.


Also like these inverted B/W for pc screen or phone screen when winding, not too bright and low energy on phone ... interesting desktops too

Leonard
Last edited by leonard3k; Mar 05, 2017 at 04:21 PM.
Mar 05, 2017, 06:02 PM
Registered User

No colours anymore, I want them to turn black


Hi Skylar
I looked at that post about the evolution delta for 24n20p and it was hard to resist

It is simply derived from the original and expanded, you might check it, see if there are any errors, but I think it's right.




You know what we ought to do, Jack, is get one of those 8.5 x 11 digital frames and put our winding diagrams in them

Leonard


After Looking up the wind scheme calculator I found this 24n 20p idea based on simply expanding Skylar's 12n14p evo for delta might probably be wrong
Last edited by leonard3k; Mar 12, 2017 at 12:07 PM.
Apr 09, 2017, 08:14 AM
Antequam sciat ego nescibam
Watageek's Avatar

What about efficiency?


What will be the gain going from an evodlrk to hp dlrk for the same Kv. If there is any?

Thanks for sharing
Last edited by Watageek; Apr 09, 2017 at 08:22 AM.
Apr 09, 2017, 08:46 AM
Jack
jackerbes's Avatar
Going from dLRK to Half Parallel dLRK at the same turn count will double the Kv, That is the reason that, in most cases, it works out good to rewind a dLRK Delta motor to Half Parallel dLRK Wye. The change from Delta to Wye at the same turn count drops the Kv by a factor of 0.58 of the Delta Kv.

And if, as is typical, if you are increasing the wire size in the rewind and also shortening the length of the wire runs with the parallel wind you have also increased the current carrying capacity of the windings a little too.

If you use one of the Turn Calculator spreadsheets it will show you the effects of changing to another wind and/or turn count. In the one attached a motor with a 2300 Kv on a 16 turn dLRK wind motor would become a 2656 Kv if it were changed to a Half Parallel dLRK Wye wind.

As far as what improvement could be expected, if you used a single strand of wire that had about the same cross section surface area (i.e. same current capacity) as the original bundle of smaller strands and did neat windings I would expect to get a motor that started and ran more smoothly and that could handle a little higher prop load with less heat or run the same prop load as the original wind at a higher throttle setting and with a little less heat in the windings.

Jack
Apr 09, 2017, 10:32 AM
Antequam sciat ego nescibam
Watageek's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by jackerbes
As far as what improvement could be expected, if you used a single strand of wire that had about the same cross section surface area (i.e. same current capacity) as the original bundle of smaller strands and did neat windings I would expect to get a motor that started and ran more smoothly and that could handle a little higher prop load with less heat or run the same prop load as the original wind at a higher throttle setting and with a little less heat in the windings.
Consider a neat job to another neat job



I was refering to the "balance between cw and ccw on each phase".

Will half parallel offer any gain on efficiency over the "standard" method or evo. assuming both rotor are neat, wire is equivalent in cross section/ mohm per feet etc

ex: 17 turn 26 awg Delta dLRK or Evo
vs 34 turn 29 AWG Delta half paralel

assuming they are perfectly equivalent (I know they are not...)

Apr 09, 2017, 11:03 AM
Jack
jackerbes's Avatar
I guess I didn't understand the question or don't know the answer, I'll defer to the experts here.

Just out of curiosity, how do you define efficiency? That may help to get a good answer.

Jack


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