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Feb 18, 2016, 03:41 PM
What could possibly go wrong?
Thread OP
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tango Juliet
I'll be following your build Bernard.

BTW, any of my countrymen had any issues getting Office Depot to print PDF files from Outerzone? I tried to get plans of the RCM Lazy Ace printed the other day, and firstly they said they couldn't print larger than 11x17, then they noticed the copyright for RCM on the plans and refused to print them at all. I tried to explain that RCM no longer exists and the plans were made available on a public domain website. Still no luck.
Hmm, fun and games. What I suggest is to download GIMP (just an excellent image editor and actually free, not a demo or trial, under GPL, software for good not evil) and use a paint tool set to white to blank that notice and go to a different branch.

I printed the whole thing on A4 sheets (56 from memory) and as I need a section I just assemble that part with double-sided tape and a blade and straight edge. It's actually got many advantages over a big roll in that you can just have the section you want laid out on the building board. Then when you want to do the next part, assemble that and you can even pull off the pages you're finished with. I'm building mine in my tiny apartment, there is honestly nowhere for a dedicate build space so I have a board that goes over my all-purpose table and gets put away again when I'm finished - far from ideal but that's what I have. Paper sheets the size of bed sheets are contraindicated. Plus the method of copy-pasting smaller sections to GIMP, then exporting a new PDF from that has been working very well for me.

If you want to try that I strongly advise not to print from GIMP, use Adobe Reader in poster mode instead, it will print to scale much more accurately. That's why you should export your file/template/whatever from GIMP as a .pdf; it's still about the only editor I've found for .pdf's worth using without going to the full Acrobat at great expense (which I've never actually used but I don't need it).
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Feb 18, 2016, 05:18 PM
Master Procrastinator
Tango Juliet's Avatar
I have Photoshop CS5 and could easily "white out" the offending copyright, I suppose. I just was curious to know if anyone else in the U.S. had encountered this issue.
Feb 18, 2016, 07:31 PM
AndyKunz's Avatar
I print plans at Staples all the time.

Andy
Feb 20, 2016, 11:42 AM
Registered User
I to have them printed at Staples and or Kinko's with no problems.

John
Feb 20, 2016, 03:12 PM
What could possibly go wrong?
Thread OP
Not much to report, very busy with work the last 2 days so I'll make some decent progress tomorrow (Sunday) before the next real post. Meantime, some minor alterations and corrections (to my own errors, that is).

You might have noticed I cut out the base of the fin to match the profile of the rear of the top block - I've changed my mind about that, to how it's done in the Trainer Jr. manual. So it means making a new fin, I've slotted the rear of the top block like Photo (5) in the manual, and the new fin will be flat-based to give more gluing area across 3 surfaces; I'm also thinking about some sort of pin or fastener to hold the fin once it's aligned, maybe a couple of half toothpicks with glue - ready-made thin pointy hardwood dowels, through the top block into the fin. Down and right thrust will be built in by trimming the fuselage doublers.

Looks like my top block stringers needed to be about 5mm / 3/16" longer as they stop just short of the stab LE - no biggie, I'll fill the gaps with scrap. The centre block of the horizontal stabiliser should ideally also not have been rounded - the way to go would have been to position the stab, then begin the stringers from its LE and run them up to bulkhead 3 to find the length.

Haven't thought about ailerons yet but I'm planning on hinging the elevator with hinge tape and probably hinge points for the rudder. I'm open to suggestions on that last point. For the elevator I'll bevel its LE to whatever I decide will be its maximum downward deflection.

I've bought almost all the hardware for this model except for linkages. I found that all the stuff in the plans is still bog standard hobby store hardware and was able to buy the same parts that must have been on the shelves when the plan was published except that they were out of 12 oz. Sullivan fuel tanks so I got a 10, since my engine has great fuel economy anyway. The nose and main gears I bought match the plan exactly. Du Bro low-bounce wheels look very 70's and I imagine that's because they are. One minor thing, as someone else mentioned I also made heavier ply plates for the fuselage sides at the landing gear, in my case out of 1/8" a/c ply rather than 1/4". Good ply isn't cheap, is it.

I'm thinking of painting my engine bay in primer then clear polyurethane, since I've got it on hand. I've heard of people thinning epoxy glue but I've never tried that.

These delays are as disappointing to me as to anyone reading, believe me, but I gotta take what work I can. 2 days ago my RC set arrived, Aurora 9X, I'm extremely happy to get it and it's timely too. Personally I've gone for a 6V NiMH setup (yes, yes, Li is great but I've spent way too much already and I don't want to get into fancy chargers as well, this way it works with what I already had... later, maybe) and now I can complete the build and balance it with that. I've got the whole day and night free tomorrow so let's do it.
Feb 20, 2016, 05:40 PM
Registered User
DustBen's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by BernardW

Haven't thought about ailerons yet but I'm planning on hinging the elevator with hinge tape and probably hinge points for the rudder. I'm open to suggestions on that last point. For the elevator I'll bevel its LE to whatever I decide will be its maximum downward deflection.
These used to be Jet hinges (Carl Goldberg subsidiary). I've used them for years on models twice as big as the RCM 60.

http://www.kavanrc.com/IndexText/0081E.html
Feb 21, 2016, 01:00 AM
Steel by day,Balsa by night
Patzpaint's Avatar
You can thin epoxy with acetone...works great as a fuel proofer, and on glass cloth.
Feb 21, 2016, 04:42 AM
What could possibly go wrong?
Thread OP
Quote:
Originally Posted by DustBen
These used to be Jet hinges (Carl Goldberg subsidiary). I've used them for years on models twice as big as the RCM 60.

http://www.kavanrc.com/IndexText/0081E.html
Interesting... that's one of those products I've avoided out of prejudice because I just didn't like the look of them. As a fan of certain sites (can you guess?) where they usually use Robart hinge points or equivalent, that's the way I was planning to go as I'd rather just drill a hole than carve a slot for a hinge.

Nobody's objecting to hinge tape or waiting to tell me any horror stories? How about some of that packaging tape with the rovings in it instead, it's strong as anything and you get much more for the price. I've been helping out on a few other builds since I got back into it but I haven't actually covered a model or used anything but plain old pinned barn-door hinges so far. In the dim dark past I built 2 sail-planes and various small models, for the life of me I just don't remember how I hinged them. I think the Gentle Lady came with pinned hinges, there was one small model I covered in tissue and dope and that was my one experience with that, but hinges I just don't remember. I have the type of parents who threw away anything I took my eyes off for more than 10 consecutive seconds on the assumption I'd lost interest - unforgivable. I'd like to see old glider again actually, chunky old pig though it was.

All the old hardware on the plans is STILL available 40+ years later, but the nose wheel came with a collar missing a grub screw so yet another voyage to the LHS, who to their credit looked after me by giving me a whole pack of new collars off the shelf (thank you Perth RC - always excellent service, always take care of their customers). In this day and age you don't expect that particular QC problem any more... must be sleepy times in the "old coot" dept. at Du Bro.
Feb 21, 2016, 11:57 AM
What could possibly go wrong?
Thread OP
All the time today's mostly gone on finishing the pieces I had ready for assembly, getting things straight and nice, and waiting for glue to dry. I made a few replacement pieces like the fins and fillet, and wouldn't you know it but my only piece of balsa that thickness was just a little too narrow, so I had to edge-glue a little corner back onto it. Also unfortunately found errors in my doublers so I made new ones, and last thing Sunday only one place was open who only had 3" wide sheets so more edge gluing. It's frustrating just having to wait, but things take time if you want to do them properly. Took much longer than I expected to prepare the stab TE/elevator LE so that both are straight, parallel and gap free, and at one end of the elevator the LE tapered off, so the choice was either to sand roughly 1mm off the whole thing or do what I did instead, which was to use a razor plane to make a thick shaving of the same material and stick it on with spray contact cement. When it dries I can just sand down that inch or so rather than the entire width of the elevator.

Trimmed up the 2 sides to be as identical as I can make them and temporarily set the tailplane on its saddles for alignment. Decided I wasn't happy with various parts and re-made them - cowl cheeks, fillet, doublers, more final trimming and sanding (top block, rudder, new fin), cut away rear bottom of fuselage to access the elevator clevis... there's more but I don't remember it all right now, I just know I've been tinkering with everything and being fussy about parts fit all day. Slow but confidence-building.

As the doublers need to be laminated to the fuse sides I have choices in adhesive. I've preferred polyurethane for this lately except as it cures it tends to bleed out of the edges and make a mess. That can be managed, the alternatives are epoxy which is fine but generally heavy. I mentioned I've never tried thinning it but I might this time so I can spread it thinly - I'll experiment on some scrap first. But my other idea is to lightly sand the laminating surfaces smooth, use sanding sealer and then spray contact glue here (again I'll try some test pieces) as almost any adhesive will stick much better to a smooth surface and it will be light. I'm just concerned it'll be strong enough not to de-laminate under stress.

More to tell but I think I'll just keep going and post later. It's been much slower than I'd hoped (not helped by yet more excursions for materials) but it's coming along, and I'm paying attention to detail to make it nice. For the benefit of those beginners I've aimed the build at I will post something about this side of things soon, it's an important stage. I'm very close to assembling the fuselage, which again will be a slow process as I want to get it aligned properly so I will be jigging it up and checking everything carefully as I go. See you soon.
Feb 21, 2016, 01:10 PM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by BernardW
Interesting... that's one of those products I've avoided out of prejudice because I just didn't like the look of them. As a fan of certain sites (can you guess?) where they usually use Robart hinge points or equivalent, that's the way I was planning to go as I'd rather just drill a hole than carve a slot for a hinge.

Nobody's objecting to hinge tape or waiting to tell me any horror stories? How about some of that packaging tape with the rovings in it instead, it's strong as anything and you get much more for the price. I've been helping out on a few other builds since I got back into it but I haven't actually covered a model or used anything but plain old pinned barn-door hinges so far. In the dim dark past I built 2 sail-planes and various small models, for the life of me I just don't remember how I hinged them. ......
Bernard,

If you have doubts about using "tape hinges", post a separate query on this subcategory or, perhaps, in the fuel plane talk subcategory - stating in detail, what material, technique, plane size/type and type of engine/motor (i.e. glow fuel with whatever typical nitro % you use). Just saying "tape hinges" likely covers a lot of good and bad possibilities.

I've returned to modeling recently after a twenty year pause and am intrigued the very wide range of hinging/sealing materials used.

My slim and possibly incorrect impression in reading various forums is that "tape hinges" aren't used on larger sized glo powered models. Is that just a convention or are there some real downsides?

For this size and fueled model I would use either individual pinned plastic hinges AND further secure the hinge halves with drilling three-quarters thru the hinge flat surface/control surface and glue the piece of round toothpick in the drilled hole; then spackle the damage to the surface and finish with the covering. That's just me; what I know how to do and do efficiently and I know the hinge line is secure and removeable if needed.

good luck

Michael in Ontario, Canada
Feb 21, 2016, 01:12 PM
Registered User
DustBen's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by BernardW
Interesting... that's one of those products I've avoided out of prejudice because I just didn't like the look of them.
I understand where you're coming from but as a modeler for 40 years having built hundreds of models and used almost every sort of hinge, including the Robart hinge points, I can tell you the thinnest CA hinges are easiest in 99% of applications to install.
I've yet to have one fail or pull out.
The only other sort of hinge I use is the home-made, double monokote, three in a row style on light planes.
Feb 21, 2016, 03:04 PM
What could possibly go wrong?
Thread OP
Thanks DustBen and Michael, about 30 seconds before reading these posts of yours I committed to a "tape-style" hinge by planing a bevel onto my elevator, but what would you guys say should be the maximum *angle* the elevator should deflect? I've started at 30 degrees hoping that will beenough for this type of model, then I thought, do I need more? I don't have the experience to know that.

What I am thinking of for a hinge is a full-span piece of heavy packaging tape with rovings. The LHS's sell purpose hinge tape, which I didn't want to pay for, it didn't look like anything special and this stuff I bought certainly has more adhesive strength than most packing tape. I figure on a smooth-sanded surface full span, it should be enough, then it will be sealed under film so it won't lift, I'm pretty confident in it. There's a lot else to do before I have to apply it, so if anybody thinks it's a bad idea I'm all ears.

Has anybody ever laminated fuselage doublers with spray glue? I'm also about to try thinning some 24-hour epoxy with acetone, to try laminating two pieces of scrap. I want to see if I can save some weight and still give a good strong bond. I'm also thinking about using thinned epoxy glue to fuel-proof the engine bay, that or clear p/u, either way over primer and sealer. BTW if I use spray glue on the doublers I'd try using sealer first so there's a smooth surface for better adhesion. Sound OK?

The rudder could also be hinged tape-style with a bevel too, the big advantage is supposed to be that a sealed join gives better response, but I've got zero flying time in 30 years so I wouldn't know. I notice we're all talking about centred hinges for the rudder. I'd prefer to do the ailerons like the elevator, I've heard you get better control (or do they just mean faster roll, and if so, is that really what I want in a model like this one?)

Haven't bothered showing everything I've done, in no particular order here's the stab and top block assembly aligned by diagonals, TE of top block faired as in plan, new fin with extra piece glued on (stock was too narrow), masking/gluing elevator and a thick shaving to correct a taper I didn't notice (damaged stock I think). New elevator & insert (one store's 3/8" can be different to another's - they don't match!) Also a tool I keep using all the time, #1 hobby knife with serated blade, it's a major problem solver. Cut-away at rear of fuselage. I haven't bought the linkages yet so it's complete guess-work, but it should do for access to the elevator clevis. What you can't see is that every surface I can access is sanded. I'm working on fuselage assembly now, I'll wait til I'm happy with it before I take photos.
Last edited by BernardW; Feb 22, 2016 at 06:23 AM.
Feb 21, 2016, 03:24 PM
Registered User
DustBen's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by BernardW
Thanks DustBen and Michael, about 30 seconds before reading these posts of yours I committed to a "tape-style" hinge by planing a bevel onto my elevator, but what would you guys say should be the maximum *angle* the elevator should deflect? I've started at 30 degrees hoping that will beenough for this type of model, then I thought, do I need more? I don't have the experience to know that.

What I am thinking of for a hinge is a full-span piece of heavy packaging tape with rovings. The LHS's sell purpose hinge tape, which I didn't want to pay for, it didn't look like anything special and this stuff I bought certainly has more adhesive strength than most packing tape. I figure on a smooth-sanded surface full span, it should be enough, then it will be sealed under film so it won't lift, I'm pretty confident in it. There's a lot else to do before I have to apply it, so if anybody thinks it's a bad idea I'm all ears.

Has anybody ever laminated fuselage doublers with spray glue? I'm also about to try thinning some 24-hour epoxy with acetone, to try laminating two pieces of scrap. I want to see if I can save some weight and still give a good strong bond. I'm also thinking about using thinned epoxy glue to fuel-proof the engine bay, that or clear p/u, either way over primer and sealer. BTW if I use spray glue on the doublers I'd try using sealer first so there's a smooth surface for better adhesion. Sound OK?

The rudder could also be hinged tape-style with a bevel too, the big advantage is supposed to be that a sealed join gives better response, but I've got zero flying time in 30 years so I wouldn't know. I notice we're all talking about centred hinges for the rudder. I'd prefer to do the ailerons like the elevator, I've heard you get better control (or do they just mean faster roll, and if so, is that really what I want in a model like this one?)

Haven't bothered showing everything I've done, in no particular order here's the stab and top block assembly aligned by diagonals, TE of top block faired as in plan, new fin with extra piece glued on (stock was too narrow), masking/gluing elevator and a thick shaving to correct a taper I didn't notice (damaged stock I think). New elevator & insert (one store's 3/8" can be different to another's - they don't match!) Also a tool I keep using all the time, #1 hobby knife with serated blade, it's a major problem solver. Cut-away at rear of fuselage. I haven't bought the linkages yet so it's complete guess-work, but it should do for access to the elevator clevis. What you can't see is that every surface I can access is sanded. I'm working on fuselage assembly now, I'll wait til I'm happy with it before I take photos.
You can still use a CA hinge on that configuration. Nothing says the hinge has to be inserted at the centerline of the aileron, rudder, or elevator.
As for the issue you're wondering about... next time, just go with a full round leading edge on the control surface and it can deflect a wide sweep.

Not trying to be critical... but this wheel has been invented, improved upon, and perfected.
Take the easy way out.
Feb 21, 2016, 03:43 PM
What could possibly go wrong?
Thread OP
Quote:
Originally Posted by DustBen
You can still use a CA hinge on that configuration. Nothing says the hinge has to be inserted at the centerline of the aileron, rudder, or elevator.
As for the issue you're wondering about... next time, just go with a full round leading edge on the control surface and it can deflect a wide sweep.

Not trying to be critical... but this wheel has been invented, improved upon, and perfected.
Take the easy way out.
Absolutely it has, but I wasn't there... the reason I went with this was because I decided I really wanted a sealed joint here... I forget the logic but it must have seemed good at the time. It's one of the methods I've seen in plenty of plans and models, same for centre-line hinges. Bevelling it just means there's a limit to max. deflection and I'd have to physically modify the elevator itself if I decided I needed more "down", but I looked at some articles and they're showing much less than I would have guessed - 10 degrees for ailerons, no more than 20 on elevators. I've got some absolute deflection numbers (not angles) for other designs so I'll do the trig. and work out what the angles would be. I've seen flaps that deflect a real long way, but I just don't know what I'd want for this one. My gut says 30 sounds enough but that's all I've got to go on. If I DID find I needed more after completing the model I guess we've all thought of the easy solution, just alter the hinge for more of a gap and it'll be able to deflect further.

Just doesn't feel like I did enough to show for the number of hours today. Oh well, at least some of that time went on being careful and trying to do it right.
Feb 21, 2016, 05:11 PM
It's gonna be YUGE!!!
LVsoaring's Avatar
Bernard, remember, you're building a Trainer 60, not an Extra 300. Once balanced properly, you'll need far less deflection than you think.... especially less down elevator! Your gut whispering that magic number 30 in your ear is at the absolute maximum for a model of this type.


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