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Feb 11, 2019, 01:09 PM
sailtails - YouTube
Gary Webb's Avatar

Schoonerburger ?


Quote:
Originally Posted by mrbassman
Just started building the "Irene". I'm a slow builder with a demanding job, however, I do have some modifications in mind. Gary, any chance you get to the pond in San Diego? I'll spring for lunch.....

Ken
Hi Ken,
I do love to visit the pond in San Diego, but get a chance to do so only once in a great while. How about this, I'll send you an email so that we can be in touch? I would be pleased to meet up with you, learn about your project, and lunch could be fun for sure!
Cheers, Gary
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Feb 17, 2019, 03:57 AM
Mad on modding
robcrusoe's Avatar

Hooked on Pelicans.


Like them or not, Garys choice of shroud fittings are definitely the way to go.

But while making them is not so hard, getting them all the same bendy shape can be daunting for some of us. I know it took me a number of retries before I got what I as looking for (and Gary had all the time!)

The rod he specifies should be easy to get at any welders suppliers , globally, and is the well worth it.

Hand shaping the bends is probably Ok for those with a flair for doing such magic, but Im not one of them. Make a proxy by bending up a hook that best fits the gunwale of your boat. It should not touch it at all.

The method used in the video is not original, it is already documented in these threads by others, but since it really is easy to do with a bit of preparation I thought Id whip up a short tutorial on it which makes it easier to understand.

When I made the former it was just to do 8 hooks, but in fact, Ive done nearly 30, all more than less identical and when I put my mind to it I can churn out one in less than a minute. So the former is just thrown together to see if it would serve, and apart from replacing a pin or two, still has many sea miles left in, it seems.

A bit of time spent, before bending up, on getting a regular eye at one end is worth the effort, and if I can do it, so can anyone. Just keep in mind that pretty near anyone looking at your boat won't notice any variation anyway, but you will.

If you are using tarred cordage for the shrouds then make sure the top of the pin where it exits the tube is slightly bent outwards for a short way. This will prevent the tube from riding up, something that I noticed when I changed from Dyneema to tarred (more slippery). Gary set me straight on that. Its worth doing anyway.

Also, when you lay the wire over the first pin you will find it fits better one way better.. Try it and youll see what I mean.

Crossbones and I intend to sail our schooners in a week or so, hopefully we will get some video to help keep the interest going in these threads while most of your await better weather.

This video is not on public view, it was just thrown together and might serve as a guide, not a proper tutorial.

Hooked on Pelicans (1 min 9 sec)
Feb 17, 2019, 05:47 PM
Registered User
Zbip57's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by robcrusoe
Garys choice of shroud fittings are definitely the way to go.
[...]
I thought Id whip up a short tutorial on it which makes it easier to understand.
Clever. A jig like that certainly makes the process more repeatable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by robcrusoe
Crossbones and I intend to sail our schooners in a week or so, hopefully we will get some video to help keep the interest going in these threads while most of you await better weather.
Looking forward to it. I'm really getting tired of the snow here.

Check this out. Earlier this week, this was a rather inconvenient moment when the clutch cable snapped on my snowblower. $#@!%
Feb 17, 2019, 06:00 PM
Registered User
Zbip57's Avatar
In other news, I've started something bold...

After much head-scratching and lying awake at night, endlessly puzzling over how this might all be achieved, I've decided to take the plunge (so to speak) adding several more sails to my Kamanik!

This is a rough idea of what I've got planned, nearly doubling the sail area. The dimensions are not yet finalized, but it's what I'm aiming for.
Feb 17, 2019, 06:18 PM
Registered User
Zbip57's Avatar
Phase-1 required the addition of two more winch servos. Fortunately there is a generous amount of space available inside the hull for that.

I need to thank Shaggy_From_NZ for the inspiration, as he posted photos of how he installed an extra servo in his Ketty Jay. See Shaggy's photos here.

I have not yet punched any extra holes through the deck to route the necessary additional sail control sheets. That's still to come...
Feb 17, 2019, 06:58 PM
Registered User
Zbip57's Avatar
Phase-2 is now also almost complete.

Kamanik has new topmasts!

The topmasts are both removable. They slide down to seat snugly into a square socket on the triangular masthead pedestals. The tension on the shrouds going down through the spreaders prevents the topmasts from coming out of their seats. Those shrouds are fastened to the rear pelican hooks of each mast. Popping the pelican hooks loose relieves the tension on the shrouds, allowing either just the topmasts to be removed, or the full masts with topmasts to be removed as one assembly.

The stays for the two flying jibs are in place now, but I have yet to add a shortened jib boom and another stay for the jib sail.

It's getting a little busy on the end of the bowsprit. I'm considering beefing up the two blocks in the bobstay that holds down the bowsprit. There will be quite a bit more upward tension on that now.

Next up I will start sewing some new sails, making a few more rigging blocks, and figuring out the routing of all the control sheets...
Feb 17, 2019, 07:28 PM
Registered User
Zbip57 ... looks intreaguing ...
INGENIOUS actually !!

Looking forward to seeing the progress and the modifications made ... how she looks and responds under way

Gee ... and that weather you are getting looks terrible ... guess that kind of weather leads to ingenious ideas with all the time inside on your hands ... what else can you be doing ... maybe your taxes ... that reminds me - I better go now
Last edited by slo.ca6; Feb 17, 2019 at 11:40 PM.
Feb 17, 2019, 08:33 PM
Mad on modding
robcrusoe's Avatar
Wow! you really are not put off by complexity, are you? :0

Having had discussions with Gary when playing around with sloop Maxine he was explaining how the overall specifications of his standard plan allows for some deviation, but nothing like doubling sail area. My main change from standard with Tessa (schooner) was to reduce all spars in diameter a fair bit. I'll know when I overdid it when the CRACK resounds, and she slews all over the place.

Anyway, keep us informed, and we look forward to the sailing.
Feb 18, 2019, 11:48 AM
Registered User
Zbip57's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by robcrusoe
Wow! you really are not put off by complexity, are you? :0
[...]
The overall specifications of [Gary's] standard plan allows for some deviation, but nothing like doubling sail area.
So far none of the modifications are irreversible. If this doesn't work out I can always go back to the standard gaff-rig, which functions beautifully thanks to Gary's robust designs.

While it's certainly an increase, the new sail area won't actually be fully doubled.

Gary's original gaff-rig plan comes to a total of 1015 sq-in sail area, whereas my additions will raise that to something like that 1796 sq-in. However there is plenty of overlap between all those extra sails, so I'm not at all sure what the resultant total effective sail area will be.

Several things are certain though. For one, it's going to be way more awkward getting it out the door with those taller masts!

But more importantly, the extra spars, rigging, and sail material will add a significant amount of mass and windage drag higher up. Also, those topsails way up there will surely generate a lot more roll moment whenever the wind blows.

My biggest worry is that the whole thing will immediately capsize and sink to the bottom of the lake the first time I set it on the water.

However, that massively heavy lead keel bulb makes the standard Irene design incredibly stable. I always surprises me, whenever I go to pick it up, just how heavy that keel fin with bulb actually is.

I also have a Shunbo Monsoon (plastic) sailboat which sails really well. But any stiff breeze tends to lay that thing flat over on its side. In stark contrast, Kamanik with the standard gaff-rig always stands straight and tall in those same winds.

I'm banking on the hope that she'll be able to handle the extra sail area. Even if she does roll more, it shouldn't be fatal as more wind spills out of the sails the further she rolls...

That's my theory anyway.
Feb 18, 2019, 01:43 PM
sailtails - YouTube
Gary Webb's Avatar
GO GUYS !
Thanks Robcrusoe for that input about the pelican hooks.
And GO Zbip - An ambitious project for sure, and your work looks so nicely done!
I'll stick my neck out and add that I think she will carry the extra sail just fine, at least in moderate conditions.
I'll also throw in another thought - the Topsails, being high up will tend to cause a bit of weather helm. Perhaps you might consider extending the bowsprit a couple inches to help offset that.
Hope I have been able to make this suggestion before you have too many sails made up.
Cheers, Gary
Feb 18, 2019, 02:02 PM
Registered User
Janusz Jawien's Avatar
Hi Zbip57,
I really admire your craftmanship and the design of the addition.
I wouldn't worry so much about capsizing to begin with. You always can add new sails piece by piece to see how the boat handles it. The whole beauty is in this "tall ship" image on the water.
I hope you did not design it looking for the first place on races with other boats on the pond !
If you are looking for the visual impact of the water, for this WOW factor you certainly nailed it!
I am in process of building my own Irene, I did some modifications for the architecture over the deck trying to be mor "scale" than very simple oryginal. Adding the "points of interest", creating little messy view of the working boat will be my goal... I will post pics later...
I have to show my deep appreciation to the creators of the oryginal design and all modellers who follow and contribute to building Emma and Irene. Reading those posts is like fresh breeze into all thise bickering and hardnosing of those who have to race. Life is to short for ordinary music.
Cheers to all !
Feb 18, 2019, 03:55 PM
Registered User
Zbip57's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Janusz Jawien
I really admire your craftsmanship and the design of the addition.
Thanks, Janusz!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Janusz Jawien
The whole beauty is in this "tall ship" image on the water.
I hope you did not design it looking for the first place on races with other boats on the pond !
If you are looking for the visual impact of the water, for this WOW factor you certainly nailed it!
I'm purely after the visual impact of the "tall ship" image. My wife thinks I'm nuts, but I can sit there, just staring for minutes at a time, admiring this beautiful boat and wishing I could shrink myself down to sail on it.

All that said, the Irene design is remarkably quick and nimble. When I've had friends here taking turns sailing my Monsoon vs. Kamanik, the boats are pretty evenly matched. The much lighter plastic Monsoon does have a small advantage in very light breezes, but it can't handle stronger winds without falling over whereas the large schooner eats that stuff up, no problem.

There is at least another month's worth of solid ice on the lake here, giving me time to complete my modifications. After that I'm itching to discover how this turns out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Janusz Jawien
I am in process of building my own Irene, I did some modifications for the architecture over the deck trying to be more "scale" than very simple original. Adding the "points of interest", creating little messy view of the working boat will be my goal... I will post pics later...
Great! We look forward to seeing your photos.

A word of caution though. While sailing, whenever the sail sheets go slack for any reason, there's a danger that they'll droop and snag on any nearby deck fixtures.

My plastic Monsoon had a bunch of decorative items glued to the deck -- big plastic steering wheels, and many little knobby winches. The steering wheels were torn off and disappeared overboard the very first time I sailed the boat. And here's a video showing how the main sheet constantly tangled on the little bollards that are supposed to look like deck winches. That caused the fairlead (where the sheet comes up through the deck) to break off, opening a path for water to enter the hull. I have subsequently cut off all of those deck hazards, so there's nothing left for the sheets to snag on.

Monsoon - Main Sheet Tangled (4 min 34 sec)
Feb 18, 2019, 04:08 PM
Registered User
Zbip57's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Webb
I'll stick my neck out and add that I think she will carry the extra sail just fine, at least in moderate conditions.
Phew. I'm so very, very relieved to hear that.

We rarely get any truly big winds on our little lake, so I'm hoping I'm good to go with this plan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Webb
I'll also throw in another thought - the Topsails, being high up will tend to cause a bit of weather helm.
Interesting... There I was worried the result would be other way around, with too much lee helm.

Weather helm is when the boat naturally wants to turn to face up into the wind, whereas lee helm is when it tends to turn downwind, correct? Or do I have those backwards again? I always get those confused.

Calculating the areas of each individual sail, and then finding the combined new centre of effort, if I'm doing the math correctly (big if), it looks like the centre has unsurprisingly moved up by 5-1/2", but also forward by 1-3/4".

I would have thought that would more likely tend to push the nose downwind. But, then again, I'm really not at all sure what the overall effect will be resulting from the large overlap between sails.

In any case, the plan is to have a separate servo controlling the trim of the flying jib sheets, so I might be able to trim out any undesirable weather or lee helm effects. The third servo will be used to tack the two topsails and the fishermans staysail (if I succeed in getting that to work the way I'd imagined it).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Webb
Perhaps you might consider extending the bowsprit a couple inches to help offset that. Hope I have been able to make this suggestion before you have too many sails made up.
Cheers, Gary
I just finished varnishing a new bowsprit! It's the same length as the original one.

The original bowsprit had a full-length jib boom permanently hinged to it. I didn't want to damage any of that original setup, in case I ever decide to abort this crazy plan and go back to what worked before. It was easier to just make a new bowsprit on which to mount the new shorter jib boom.

I haven't started making the sails yet, hopefully later this week.

I might need to fashion some new pin rails at the base of each mast, as I've run out of space on the shroud-mounted pin rails. I will also need to fabricate a few more rigging blocks, some mast hoops for the topsails, and cut up a few more Bic Pens for several thousand more jib-sail hanks. My finger tips ache already just thinking about the endless sanding required for those...
Feb 18, 2019, 04:34 PM
Mad on modding
robcrusoe's Avatar
Zip, the Monsoon needs (requires) more like 1600 g of ballast to sail well. All the Shunbos are wrongly recommended (in the blurb) as only needing 1300g, and if anyone can fit sinkers or nuts into the plastic bulb to even get that much, I dunno.
But that is not relevant subject mater here, ShipShapeRC has volumes on the subject. But properly ballasted, and rigged (near to standard) the Monsoon will handle very lively conditions.
Feb 18, 2019, 06:49 PM
Registered User
Janusz Jawien's Avatar
Hi Zbip57,
Oh, this "Monsoon Meyham" video was as refreshing as a bucket of icy water ! I got all the important warming from it!
The thought about your sails addition : the tall ships only on the vanity paintings were sailing in full glory... in real life the sails were in and out depending on the wind condition and soberity of the capitain...:-) I think that your additions will increase the playing field and made the "scale" sailing more exciting !


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