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Dec 19, 2018, 11:27 PM
Mad on modding
robcrusoe's Avatar
And thanks to you Paul for your kind comments.

It has been great to have CB along for my last 2 boats as it makes it all so much more satisfying, and in many ways, more productive as we learn from each other.

We've featured the two Emmas, and also my modified Emma "Maxine" as a sailing duo at times, but now that we have six between us we are planning, in the autumn, to enlist the help of 4 other skippers in our group to stage a six boat Sail Past and maybe a bit of match racing
.
This Monday we are planning on another video with the two new sweetheats but all video taken on the water. Conditions likely to be reasonable but at least sunny, albeit a rather warm 34C/93F. The next day, Christmas Day, is predicted as 38C/100F bb
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Dec 20, 2018, 12:19 PM
sailtails - YouTube
Gary Webb's Avatar

Schooner(s)


Congratulations Crossbones & robcrusoe! Very nice work, and great to see the schooners sailing together. Looks like almost too much Fun! Thanks for your efforts, I always enjoy the videos and I'm sure everybody else does too.
Dec 22, 2018, 02:25 PM
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Zbip57's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by robcrusoe
Those having a keen and knowing eye will easily spot some differences, but how many?
There certainly are plenty of intriguing differences, besides the obvious Bermuda mainsail rig vs. Gaff rig.

I was so focused on the absence of a bowsprit or bumkin, and the different shape of the bow, that it took a long time to even notice that the entire hull is longer! Is it also narrower in the beam, or am I just imagining that?
Last edited by Zbip57; Dec 22, 2018 at 10:55 PM. Reason: imagining - not imaging.
Dec 22, 2018, 03:49 PM
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Zbip57's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zbip57
I finally found some images showing how it's done for real. The topsails do have to be passed across over the top of the gaff halyards and over the cross-stays between the masts!
See screengrabs below from these two videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ellOAH13qJU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTb_Tdo9jzI
I'm still thinking about topsails...

Here are a couple more videos for y'all. This is the racing yacht Altair. Check out the shots where she's flying all of her sails. I just love the look of all those glorious sails!

ALTAIR ✔ (2 min 50 sec)


It turns out there are RC model plans available for the Altair, and I managed to get a hold of a set hoping to discover how all those sails can be managed on an RC boat. But I'm disappointed to report that, although the plans are very detailed, they cheat when it comes time to actually sail the boat. The topsails are set-and-forget. Not only that, but to allow the fore topsail room to swing from side to side when tacking, the plans say for actual sailing one should remove the triatic and other stays between the two masts!

Here's a video of such an elegant RC model Altair at her unfortunately less than flattering first launch. (Note also the appearance at 5:25 of a very Irene-like schooner with red sails and topsails!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtS_SdAs4GQ
Dec 22, 2018, 05:49 PM
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Zbip57's Avatar
Funny I never noticed this before, despite watching the video a few dozen times, but the thumbnail image for this video shows a fore topsail in the process of being hoisted or struck.

Schooner Day Palma de Mallorca 2016 (3 min 36 sec)
Dec 22, 2018, 05:59 PM
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Zbip57's Avatar
Evidence of the depth of my commitment to further in-depth research of topsail gaff schooners, I just booked a six-day trip on the Lewis R. French out of Camden, Maine, next summer for my wife and myself coinciding with our 36th wedding anniversary, and she approved!

Windjamming In Maine (6 min 53 sec)


Windjammer Lewis R. French http://www.schoonerfrench.com/ (2 min 25 sec)
Dec 22, 2018, 08:39 PM
Flying Models Plans
Very interesting, you are in for a treat.

Penobscot Bay is known worldwide for its sailing, and despite the inevitable development over the years, Camden retains much of its charm. My family moved there a few months before my 4th birthday, and my sister still lives in town. My high school prom date's father owned one of the other schooners sailing from Camden at the time, though I expect he has passed it along by now as well. I was last there in late May for my mother's memorial service.

While in the area, you might want to take in the Owl's Head Transportation Museum a few miles south. They have an interesting collection of aircraft, automobiles and other associated machinery, most of which still operates on summer weekends.

Thayer
Dec 23, 2018, 03:34 AM
Mad on modding
robcrusoe's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zbip57
There certainly are plenty of intriguing differences, besides the obvious Bermuda mainsail rig vs. Gaff rig.

I was so focused on the absence of a bowsprit or bumkin, and the different shape of the bow, that it took a long time to even notice that the entire hull is longer! Is it also narrower in the beam, or am I just imagining that?

Good thinking Zip.


It is indeed a longer, narrower beamed, hull, but the overall length of an Irene with bowsprit with bow sprit is the same O.L. The keel is shorter and the bulb lighter. all the spars are smaller in diameter and it has vangs on the main booms. you can easily see how high it sits above the water.

That strange looking, almost porpoise nose looking bump on the bow is to raise the forestay clear of the luff of the jib in absence of a sprit..


CB and I are taking them both out again in the morning, bit on the warm side at 34C but otherwise good sailing, if not exactly that "exciting" conditions we so earnestly seek. I'll get some closer comparative pics. I've reworked the gooseneck areas and restyled the fixed vangs to get free boom travel.
Dec 24, 2018, 04:06 AM
Mad on modding
robcrusoe's Avatar

Onboard video with Skye and Tessa2


Onboard Mobius video sailing

As expected, CB and I got Skye and Tessa2 out on the water is excellent summer weather. Forecast was for indifferent wind but as the morning progressed, so did the wind.
CB’s boat sailed without a hitch, mine had all sorts of problems, all my own fault, and finished up with a broken mast.
The moral is, stick to Gary’s plans and instructions and you’ll have endless hours of trouble free sailing. Follow my habit and starting changing things and hiccups are regular for a while until everything finally gets sorted out.

The video is in two parts, the first longer section has the mobius mounted up in front of the wheel and binnacle, in fact the mount is a simple hatch cover built to fit the camera in a simple, standard hatch off, camera hatch on.
The last, shorter section has the same arrangement but up front looking rearwards .
Both show the boat underway , initially poorly set jib and all, but in general both boats performed equally well all morning. I had no time to even think of fitting the GPS in to get top speed readings but I think it would be around 11 kph/ 7 mph/ 6 knots [ rough conversion]. I don’t know about Skye but the camera deck was never awash. Tessa2 will tend to be drier as she sits higher on the water.
This video gives an indication on how camera placement on a boat can make or mar the viewing but having two on a long boat certainly adds to the sense of being onboard, I think.
While it was not intentional, there is a significant absence of something that he of the keen eye may well pick up on. See if you can spot it, it is not a small or unimportant thing. Oh, and it isn’t the inaccurate date stamp on the first camera, that is never displayed but somehow got turned on.

Christmas Eve 2018 rc schooners (3 min 59 sec)


And speaking of video production, check out this remake of a 120 year old day in Paris, but jump ahead to 4 minutes and you'll see Gary and Spike in there somewhere setting up an early Bearospace program.

Late 1890s - A Trip Through Paris, France (speed corrected w/ added sound) (5 min 59 sec)


Being Christmas Eve here Down Under (longest day 2 days ago) I’d like to acknowledge, and sincerely thank, all those who have been so supportive and interested in what not only I and CB get up to, but every other builder as well. It goes without saying, but I will, that it is all due to Gary and his vision of making plywood so much more fun, on the water, than anywhere else. Thanks mate, for inviting us all aboard and encouraging so many to “have a go”.
We have a saying down here “Your blood’s worth bottling” (or “canning” )
Dec 24, 2018, 11:15 AM
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Zbip57's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by robcrusoe
... there is a significant absence of something that he of the keen eye may well pick up on. See if you can spot it...
Oh! Oh! Pick me! I know, I know!

Snow and ice!

I noticed that missing right away. What do I win?
Dec 24, 2018, 12:01 PM
sailtails - YouTube
Gary Webb's Avatar

Absence of Something ???


Tessa2 NEEDS Shrouds I reckon !
Cheers, Gary
Dec 24, 2018, 03:11 PM
Mad on modding
robcrusoe's Avatar
Tough luck Zip, but nice try.. That cold wet stuff couldn't survive 2 seconds around here, hard enough to keep enough beer cold (but we manage).

And I would have been VERY disappointed if Gary hadn't smoked (old British naval term for 'guessed' ) this shocking remiss on my part.
My pre-sailing prepping was a bit hectic and at home I'd removed the shrouds from the masts and left them on a peg, not on the holders I had made for them. At the lake it seemed to take for ever to get the boat on the water, and it wasn't until I brought in back in with a winch glitch (my fault, again, but time wasting) I only noticed the lack of shrouds. As Maxine has never had shrouds, or seemingly needed them, and with the wind being just a light breeze I elected to go with it. Later on, towards the end on the 2 hours , the wind did really pick up, so we both agreed that it would be wise not to put her out in it. Who knows what might have happened?

Hopefully it will be all plain sailing for the poor boat in future.
Dec 24, 2018, 05:16 PM
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Zbip57's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zbip57
The level of detail is entirely up to you. There are many ways the design can be simplified.
It doesn't actually need all those lines. The masts are totally strong enough that they would easily stand on their own with no shrouds attached whatsoever...
Quote:
Originally Posted by robcrusoe
... mine had all sorts of problems, all my own fault, and finished up with a broken mast.
Oops. I guess that means shrouds actually are required, huh?
Dec 25, 2018, 02:45 AM
Mad on modding
robcrusoe's Avatar

Shrouds, yes or no ?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zbip57
Oops. I guess that means shrouds actually are required, huh?

Despite having a mast failure, On LAND, due to some weakened timber, I do believe that with fore and aft stays, with at least a centering pin in a block, fixed firmly to the deck that it isn't necessary. But you could say the same about the degree of bulkhead adhesion, but on a two master even I wouldn't purposely omit them. Sloop Maxine was an exception, the shrouds were simply overlooked and as she sailed so well in heavy going I never fitted them.

The failure with Tessa was too large a hole for the centering pin that also doubles as a support when I lift the entire boat by the masts, a precautionary measure to prevent aggravating a long time back problem. What happened is that the boat was being laid on it's side but a gust took charge and slammed into the ground, and it snapped like a wormy carrot at the pin position. with shrouds it wouldn't have. But it did sail quite nicely through all that video time, 2 hours or so, and as the masts are based on 12mm hardwood, not 16mm as per the Irene specs, that is even more supportive to not having them..
So, in my opinion, not so necessary but definitely desirable.


But lets see what Gary has to say about it.
Dec 26, 2018, 11:17 PM
sailtails - YouTube
Gary Webb's Avatar

Shrouds Etc.


Hi Gang,
Reckon I'll try to say something about shrouds. Nothing absolute you understand, but will share my thoughts.

In the case of "Emma" (13.5 pounds & 5/8" Diameter mast), I think the shrouds are not needed.
They can however contribute to keeping her Jib luff taut which might benefit her sailing performance.

"Irene" being bigger and heavier (25 pounds & 5/8" Diameter masts) probably does need them.

There is no way to calculate these things. There are so many unknowns, such as quality of wood for the masts and what conditions Bear might encounter rounding Cape Horn. In any case the rigging can add much to the schooner's character. She was meant to be strong and tough, ruff and ready, like Bear. The shrouds provide a place for the pin rails which in turn are the best place for halyards to go. Just like a real boat, if you enjoy that sort of thing. I do.

I know some about "Tessa 2" (20 pounds & 1/2" Diameter masts and a generous sail area) She needs the shrouds. ( just my own hands on gut feeling)
Yes she sailed without them, supported somewhat by the stays, but in a delicate state.
I did notice Tessa 2 looking good in an earlier video, complete with her shrouds and pin rails.

Cheers, Gary


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