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Nov 27, 2018, 08:24 PM
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Zbip57's Avatar
Originally Posted by tigman
[...] Is there no way to incorporate the flying jib with the rest of the sails on one winch?
Originally Posted by Shaggy_From_NZ
zBip posted a Solution on Page 71 of this forum, but it relies on an arm for the main sheets not a pulley, might work on emma with her smaller sheet travel[...]
See description and two illustrations in this previous post:

It's a little difficult to visualize what's going on in those diagrams, so here are a couple of photos I found elsewhere. For the moment ignore the drum winches in the background and look at just the white arms on the arm-servo in the foreground.

The arm in the middle, with the pin mounted at its end, is splined to the servo. The servo drives that arm through a 90° arc to either side.

The two other arms are independently hinged to pivot loosely out to either side. One arm is for the starboard sheets of the flying jibs, the other for the port-side sheets.

When the servo arm is positioned straight fore-aft, both the sheet arms are free to spool out their sheets loosely. As the servo arm rotates to one side or the other, the pin on the end of it pushes against the sheet arm, thereby pulling tight the sheet on that side while leaving the sheet on the opposite side loose.

Additionally, the same servo arm can be used to let out, or pull in, the sheet leading to a sail boom. Tie the end of the boom sheet to the tip of the servo arm where the pin is. Run the sheet through a fairlead mounted at the midpoint of the servo arm's full swing arc, i.e. bottom-centre of the photo. When the arm is positioned straight fore-aft, the boom sheet is let out all the way loose. When the servo arm is swung 90° to either one side or the other, the boom sheet is pulled in tight.

The idea is, that a single servo arm can pull in or let out the boom sheets, regardless of which side the servo arm is swung to, while simultaneously trimming the jibs sheets in tight or out loose to starboard or to port.

The drawbacks of using this system is your sheet travel is limited by the space available inside the hull to swing the servo arm as far as possible to one side or the other, and it requires a lot of torque to swing a long arm through a big arc if that one arm is pulling all the sail sheets together.

In these photos, the arm-servo is working only the jib sheets. The big drum servos in the background are for the other sails.
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Nov 29, 2018, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Gary Webb
Thanks Zbip57 for addressing the tough realities of properly using overlapping Jibs and Topsails. Unlike our models, full size boats have busy crew aboard to handle things. A challenge for sure on the model!
After seeing Shaggy's clever implementation of a flying jib on his Ketty Jay, I've become obsessed with the idea of adding multiple overlapping sails to my Kamanik. I have literally lost sleep over this, as I cannot stop my mind churning over the challenges of how to execute this plan.

I'm currently working up some diagrams to show how it's possible in theory. It's slow going though.

Whether it can actually be done in practice on a model is a whole other question, not to mention it would have been much easier before gluing down the deck. Retrofitting the required servos and lines ain't gonna be easy. I might have to build a whole new boat instead. Of course, whenever I pull out the sketchpad as my thoughts start drifting in that direction, my wife immediately points to the long list of chores currently being ignored.

Originally Posted by Gary Webb
I am prone to opt for simplicity on my own boats (see the self tending topsails on my gaff schooner "Tramp") but I do applaud those who might tackle the more demanding projects.
Gary, as always, your elegant solutions are an inspiration to us all.

All the thanks (blame?) go to you for planting these wild ideas in our heads.
Nov 29, 2018, 02:34 PM
Mad on modding
robcrusoe's Avatar

Removable decks, yes or no ?

While multiple jibs are outside my workplans currently, it is indeed interesting to see what you two are getting into.
However, I must admit that I am no stranger to removable decks, nor the value of being able to do so should good cause present itself. So far I have done so twice, the first out of frustration and rather messy, the second and most recent (2 days ago ) came away with not loss of structural integrity to the deck, hull or my own self-satisfaction. Glue is not necessary at all to the rigidity of the hull or anything else related to it, it is just easy to do and profoundly effective in keeping water out. The proper installation of bulkheads is what matters, as you know.
If you are unlikely to be a "dabbler" of ideas then the conventional gluing down is fine, but there is no changing your mind afterwards. Whereas if you make the deck removable, and never really do so, no problem. The experience will be enough.
While it is too soon to report on what I'm doing, how and even why, it will be interesting to recount once I ensure that everything goes together as planned.
I now have a standard Irene and an Emma, albeit with unglued down decks, and they’ll stay that way. Then eventually, one of each, somewhat modified. The schooner is more ambitious, and the reason for the most recent deck removal is to make an entirely new one, structures and all, with a raft of improvements learnt by much trial and error (normal for me) as I went along but also while I change the winch/sheeting to that more common on standard rc Bermuda style rigs. Having the deck off makes the repositioning of winch works so easy, as you know it would.
So, bottom line is, removable decks are not only easy to do, but practical if the need should arise.

I‘ll take some photos as things progress and post them with a few notes.
Dec 01, 2018, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Zbip57
I've become obsessed with the idea of adding multiple overlapping sails to my Kamanik. [...] I'm currently working up some diagrams to show how it's possible in theory.
Alrighty then.

After some research, and plenty of head-scratching, I took the liberty of editing Gary's diagram to show different views of how this thing might (in theory) be rigged to work.

If the video plays too fast for you, just stop and start it so you have time to study each image.

Wadda ya tink? Would this work?

It's just a simple (ha! ) matter of adding some extra servos to pull on various lines. The complications (more of them) are where to fit those servos, and how to adjust the various different travel lengths required...

Topsails - How to tack? (4 min 34 sec)
Dec 01, 2018, 01:44 PM
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Zbip57 - Gorgeous presentation. Quite impressive. You got the deal, I'm sold! I don't have the expertise to tell you if it'll work but I sure hope it does cause I'm looking forward to watching this thread and your work. Bravo.
Dec 02, 2018, 01:04 PM
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Brainstorm! (Ouch, those hurt.)

Why not delete this (red) main topmast forestay, and route it instead across the tips of the topmasts as shown by the (green) line?

That would simplify things a bit. I'd still need to run both the tack line and fore topsail sheet over the (triatic?) stay, the one joining the tips of the fore and main masts. But that opens things up a bit and should be considerably easier than forcing everything up over and through that higher wedge (green triangle) shown in my previous video.

I'm almost convinced the theory is sound. But mounting more winches below deck and punching new holes through the deck, um, that's another story...
Dec 02, 2018, 02:13 PM
Flying Models Plans
This all looks reasonable, and worth mocking up quickly. Perhaps even to the point of something with servos mounted on it so you could take it out in the yard when windy and see how it goes. No point in heavy mods to an already working model until you know it will likely be fine.
Dec 02, 2018, 02:55 PM
sailtails - YouTube
Gary Webb's Avatar

Top Sail Tacking

Wow Zbip57 -
You have surely earned an A+ for Problem Solving, and another A+ for Video Production ! AWESOME presentation ! Very clear and well done !
Next semester will be a course in "Practical Mechanics" and we will all be standing by for a report !
Do try to get some sleep my friend.
Meanwhile, consider allowing the lower portion a gaff top sail to lie against the gaff halyards on one tack. This is commonly the case on full size craft, and is not as bad as it first appears because the gaff and its' halyards already lie at an appropriate angle to the wind. Of course this is a solution for the Main Top Sail only. Stays are still in the way of the Fore Top Sail, and this of course is why I opted for the Top Mast Stay Sail on "Tramp".
Just for fun, a few old photos of working schooners with top sails.
Alas, we have not yet mentioned the Square Top Sails on the fore masts of many older schooners -
Cheers, Gary
Dec 03, 2018, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Zbip57
Brainstorm! Why not delete this main topmast forestay, and route it instead across the tips of the topmasts?
I made another short video to illustrate this "simplification".

Revised Topsail Rigging (0 min 57 sec)
Last edited by Zbip57; Dec 03, 2018 at 06:05 PM.
Dec 03, 2018, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Gary Webb
Just for fun, a few old photos of working schooners with top sails.
Yikes! That's a lot of sails.

Originally Posted by Gary Webb
Alas, we have not yet mentioned the Square Top Sails on the fore masts of many older schooners
Cheers, Gary
I find the square sails unattractive. But that "Fisherman Staysail" has me thinking some more...
Dec 05, 2018, 07:00 PM
Crossbones06589's Avatar


Hi guys, bet you thought I had dropped off the face of the earth ! Have had a few projects on the go at the same time as my Irene aka SKYE.
I am now getting close to the end so I have attached a quick photo showing progress. Hopefully I am looking at a launch in the coming weeks so will post some final photos and possibly a video when she is on the water. Robcrusoe and I will be taking our boats up to the lake and hopefully get some good video.

As I said will post some final photos late next week.

Cheers Crossbones
Dec 05, 2018, 07:37 PM
Mad on modding
robcrusoe's Avatar

Nothing like a sailing companion..

Well, the first viewing, even for me that helped cut the hull strakes out all those months ago.

Definitely can tell you have studied under the Master, so to speak ( Gary, not me! )

But, do my eyes deceive me? Is that a workroom In The HOME?? Couldn't happen here Another Gary Thing, I guess.

Have to say, yet again, if the builder can get someone else interested and you have another to sail with and compare notes, etc., the result is Plus/Plus for both of you.

Thanks for keeping me into it!
Dec 06, 2018, 12:00 AM
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Just a couple more picks as I get closer to the launch. Currently working on the keel and next week, out with sewing machine. Sails are all cut ready to sew.
Dec 08, 2018, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Crossbones06589
Just a couple more picks as I get closer to the launch....
Pretty! Can't wait to see her on the water.
Dec 08, 2018, 06:58 PM
Mad on modding
robcrusoe's Avatar

Fixed or removable decking? Pt 1

{With the forum rather quiet, northern winter, maybe? here’s an article of sorts to help generate some supportive responses }

From the first Irene, Molly G, it was a given that somewhere along the line, either out of necessity or whim, I would want to do something below deck that would be a lot easier if the hull was open.

So, while everything mentioned here is purely subjective, or how and why I do it, it should at least be of interest to many.
If you are just getting into your build, Irene or Emma, the decision obviously must be made before the deck is fastened into place, either permanently with glue, or firmly held in place by practical reversal methods.

Why bother? You may well ask. Gary’s plans provide everything you need to make your boat a singular shell, i.e. hull, bulkheads and deck. Short of the boat being run over by a truck, it is going to remain 100% intact indefinitely.
But not all of us are the perfect, “get it right the first time” sort of builder (both my hands are up) and some of us will already be harbouring mutinous thoughts on how to maybe change things. Such thinking can be held over until the construction of your next boat, but not everyone will want more than the one, yet may hanker to modify it sometime instead.

Ok, so what kind of things might that be?
1: Alter the internal winch location and even the method employed. For instance, in the Emma, fit an Irene type drum winch instead of the arm version.

2: Remedy structural waterproofing due to excessive water ingress.

3: The deck layout, construction or composition may not be to your total satisfaction. More often this will be more to do with aesthetics than functional, being easier, and quicker, to do a new deck than a new boat altogether.
Then you may feel like a complete makeover (eventually, that is) of the entire deck structures, appearance, form and colour. Nothing like starting with a new virgin deck cut out to let your fancy turn into a design masterpiece. This aspect rates a section of its own.

Maybe it’s just me, but regardless of how happy I with my new boat evolves, there grows an awareness of either mild dissatisfaction here and there or just a desire to do some things differently, either because of what I’ve seen on your boat, maybe, or ideas that pop up from time to time and niggle away until you have to at least give it a try. Some of us are forward thinkers and do it during the build, for me the process is somewhat more delayed, but inevitable.
And for me, years with conventional “plastic” rc racing sailboats, the desire to use some of those characteristics is ever present, particularly in the rigging. This can lead to winch modification and even new deck layouts to allow for different sheeting routes.

So, this post is a starter, hopefully getting some input from you as it’s there are many successful, and satisfied, builders that are just as happy to talk about these things yet no desire to do them.

Just so it wont cause anyone too much horror from the thought, here is a pic of a recently removed deck.
Clearly It had problems with finish and had “to go”. This did, however, make it easy to begin implementing new ideas that couldn’t be achieved with the original deck fixed in place.

To be continued..

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