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Oct 22, 2017, 03:00 PM
Mad on modding
robcrusoe's Avatar
Until they do and can be made with commonplace tools I'm using flat plastic bowsies.



Easy to make, just three holes.
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Oct 22, 2017, 03:34 PM
Registered User

Turnbuckles


Why would you need turnbuckles (rigging screws) on a period Schooner ??? Turnbuckles are the sole domain of aerial riggers (OK adopted for use on modern sail craft ) BUT NOT A PERIOD SAILING SHIP, There you would find dead eyes , Anyway making turnbuckles is not worth the effort as are easily available commercially , I just found on line 2mm ones zinc plated @ five for 99p Also found Walnut dead eyes 8mm @ 40 for 1-88p again not worth the effort to make them , Regards C/P
Oct 22, 2017, 04:00 PM
Mad on modding
robcrusoe's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cornish Pierat
Why would you need turnbuckles (rigging screws) on a period Schooner ??? , Regards C/P
You could say, then, why build a Bearopspace boat which is not a faithful detailed representation of the the original craft?

I didn't say what I wanted them for, just that the subject came up and I was interested in any positive methodology. I agree that they are not needed on either the Irene or Emma but somewhere in his notes Gary has said that he hopes to see what variations others will come up with.

It would be handy if the link to these items you mention was included.
Oct 23, 2017, 02:36 AM
Registered User
SA/RCFlyer's Avatar
The dead eye idea looks very good. Please give some more info on how they could be made and rigged.
Oct 23, 2017, 04:10 AM
Registered User

Turnbuckles / dead eyes


Sorry Rob did not see your post re Bowsies ,as was still on page 44 until I submitted reply to SA/RC Flyer and it was slotted in under your posting .
2mm turnbuckles were on e-bay and the walnut deadeyes were at www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk Suspect if you were thinking of making them you would need ,A wood lathe , and a drilling jig But at 40 for 1-88p not worth considering making them , Appologies for the confusion BUT assuned the forum was specific to Bearospace boats, C/P
Oct 23, 2017, 09:47 AM
Registered User
My apologies for making post #660 ... great example of blocks ... that had the added comment about turnbuckles - indeed not part of this forum thread .... again my apologies
Last edited by slo.ca6; Oct 23, 2017 at 06:37 PM.
Oct 23, 2017, 12:00 PM
Modeler/ Historian
Stephen Vick's Avatar
I do love the Emma builds... For me Schooners can be scale or be freelanced (much like tugboats). The Emma, seems a perfect platform for freelancing your fantasy yacht.
Oct 25, 2017, 02:54 AM
Mad on modding
robcrusoe's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen Vick
I do love the Emma builds... For me Schooners can be scale or be freelanced (much like tugboats). The Emma, seems a perfect platform for freelancing your fantasy yacht.
Ah, while I agree the Emma is open to all sorts of variations it is a sloop, not a schooner. Maybe you meant the Irene, easy to do (my hand is up more than once )
Oct 25, 2017, 03:05 PM
Registered User

Correct Rake?


Had the plans for a couple of weeks and moving on with the build. Most bits and pieces are ordered up. Now at the stage of making sure i dont paint myself in before fixing deck in place. Making the gaff rig. Not sure if rake of masts is too much. Picture taken level and at 90 degrees to boat. Got the fin cut and just to make the mould for bulb.
Oct 25, 2017, 03:36 PM
Mad on modding
robcrusoe's Avatar

Mast Rake Irene


Initially it will look excessive but if you follow the plan positioning of the deck openings and the mast steps it will be spot on. It will look "right" once you get it fully rigged. If the mast gap is the same at the deck level and the tops then it will be fine, unless the openings and steps don't match specification locations.
You are not the first to question this.
Here's a few photos, two during build and a final on the water, underway, which shows what I mean. The keeper cord (my term) Abetween the two mast tips serves to keep that gap true under sailing conditions.

BTW, you don't have to gluet he deck on if you prefer. I just felt uncomfortable about not being able to get back in the hull completely should the need ever arise, so I used acrylic gap sealer (so little you have to look close to see it) to seal the edge of the deck against the hull and using small stainless steel screws near the edge of the deck down into the spaced blocks (7mm ply) that we used to position and help support the deck.

Looking good, I'd say. How about some more photos, bit closer would be great.
Last edited by robcrusoe; Oct 25, 2017 at 03:50 PM.
Oct 25, 2017, 05:18 PM
Registered User

Mast Rake


I followed the plan as closely as i could but made some minor adjustments to get the deck to fit. Would be helpful to know the distance between mast centers at base. I'm used to sailing IOM's where the deck is often awash so i am keen to make as watertight as possible. Sounds as though this isnt necessary. The plywood I'm using is quite light so I'm planning to skin it with 4oz fiberglass.
Thanks for your encouragement. Will keep you posted.
Oct 25, 2017, 06:58 PM
Mad on modding
robcrusoe's Avatar
I can do that It is 370mm centre to centre at the deck openings. I cannot get into the hull (easily) to measure it down there.But it should be the same, albeit not directly (vertical underneath.). They haves a 10 degree aft rake. The centre of the foremast, just above the opening in the deck, measure approx. 330 mm to the bow. That depends somewhat to where you consider the bow to be, on mine it is blunt where the bowsprit extends from. Gary is the best person to comment on any deviation from his plans in respect to rake.
Oh, yes, this a the gaff option version, cannot tell from your photo which version you are following, there is a difference in the mast settings.

As for getting awash I can't imagine (haven't pushed it that hard..yet) for water coming any further than halfway across the deck area between cabin side and gunnel. Even so, and I have had rc sailboats that have had from little to catastrophic amounts of water in them , yet I cannot see the Irene ever tasking on more that a negligible amount of water ingress, and even if it did, it would take an awful lot of water to get up to the electronics and by that time you would have seen her sitting too low in the water. But that won't happen unless the hull is pierced somehow. the 3mm ply I use would need canon fire to do that! But you say your ply is a little thin, how thick is it? The scuppers work very effectively and are only needed when the boat heels over on a fast reach. This is the only boat I have that wont be fitted with a drain plug.

But I haven't had mine out in a decent blow yet, we have to look to Glidin' for his experiences.

You mention having to make adjustments to fit the deck. Well, so did I on the current Emma project and got in myself into some strife. All I can say is do as Gary says, fit the bulkheads into the hull and then make the deck fit, not the other way around as I did on the Emma.
Oct 25, 2017, 08:59 PM
Registered User
Thread OP

Irene Mast Rake


I took measurements on Gary's Page 1 Sail + Rigging Plan and found the mainmast rake to be 4-1/2 degrees. The foremast looked to be 3-1/2 degrees. These are relative to the waterline. I found the top of the cargo hold to be drawn horizontal, that is, parallel with the waterline and used it as a reference surface.
I then used tangent ratios to figure how far back the mast tops should be and used a 4foot level to measure the rakes of my masts. One came out pretty close. The other was adjusted by tapering its base off center.
Gary has the specs for the step placements on page 2.
Oct 26, 2017, 12:08 AM
sailtails - YouTube
Gary Webb's Avatar

Mast Rake - correct data


Hi Gang, Will throw in a bit more about Irene's mast rake. The issue is complicated a bit due to the gaff version having more rake than the original rig with the marconi main sail. Both rigs call for the masts to pass thru the deck in the same location (shown clearly on the full size deck pattern). The difference is accomplished with the location of the mast steps glued to the bottom of the hull. The plans specify the step location(s) relative to bulkheads. Take care to use the dimensions for the rig you have chosen, and measure carefully.
In April 2017, I revised page 2 of the plans to include the gaff version step locations. Earlier plan sets had this information on the gaff sail plan sheet. Unfortunately, very early on, the gaff sail plan sheet had a OOPS typo - wrong dimension - which I corrected.
Here's the correct step locations for both rigs:

Original (marconi main) - Foremast step center 3 - 3/16" aft of Sta. 1
Mainmast step center 1 - 5/8" aft of Sta. 3

Gaff version - Foremast step center 2 - 13/16" aft of Sta. 1
Mainmast step center 1 - 5/16" aft of Sta. 3

I will add that (either rig) the masts are NOT parallel, the mainmast having a bit more rake than the foremast. If you have been able to put the mast holes in the deck according to the pattern, and the steps glued into the hull according to these dimensions, there is no need to attempt angle measurement. Irene can tolerate slight variations.
Cheers, Gary
Oct 26, 2017, 10:10 AM
sailtails - YouTube
Gary Webb's Avatar

Mast Rake - Measuring - and Tradition


Hi again everybody,
OK, I went to my original lines drawing for "Irene" to find the actual mast rake specs.
Mast rake is typically measured as inches of rake per foot of height, rather than by degrees.
Here is what I intended the mast rake to be for Irene:

Original sail plan (marconi main sail) - Foremast rake aft 5/8" per foot
Mainmast rake aft 3/4" per foot

Optional gaff plan (w/gaff main sail) - Foremast rake aft 1-3/8" per foot
Mainmast rake aft 1-1/2" per foot

The top of the fin trunk can be used as a level reference. As glidin'n'slidin' pointed out, the top of the cargo hold is also level.
For those interested, I'll talk about why schooner masts are not parallel and the mainmast is raked more than the foremast. TRADITION,
Here's my take on WHY - (think full size boat) - when viewed from deck or from nearby ground (sea) level, if the masts are actually parallel, they will appear to come together at the top. This will offend the trained eye, and the fix is to rake the aft mast a bit more. I believe early boat designers were quite sensitive to this sort of thing, and I simply followed this TRADITION when drawing Irene. If you are so fortunate as to be in the company of full size schooners, note this detail. You will never glance at a rig the same way again, without becoming terribly critical.
Thanks for bearing with me, and my apologies to most of the world for the "inches & feet" rather than centimeters, it's just the way I was raised, family TRADITION
Cheers, Gary


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