Non-foiling trimarans and catamarans - Page 11 - RC Groups
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Sep 04, 2017, 12:19 PM
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Good suggestion Tom!, Why don't YOU go on to something else and let us try to get something going without your negative comments all the time.
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Sep 04, 2017, 12:50 PM
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Dick L.'s Avatar
Tom,

Surprised you aren't more familiar with AMYA's stated "goals" given your long time membership. Be that as it may, ..............
1. The Brit's Multihull class formed and ran itself for quite a few years. Only recently they became associated with the MYA. They (Class) were well promoted by Marine Modelling Magazine (prior to becoming affiliated with the MYA) which lent itself to number of multihull articles since the editor was Chris Jackson, also a multihull enthusiast.
2. For your reference, here is the stated goals of AMYA:
(my emphasis in red)

Welcome to the World of Model Yachting

We are a 40 year old, not-for-profit organization dedicated to promoting the designing, building, racing, and preservation of all model sailing yachts, and membership is open to all who are interested in these activities.

Our official classes of racing yachts cover the range from one foot to eight feet in length and from high tech developmental boats to affordable one designs. There really is something for every taste and skill level. The advantages of sailing a recognized class boat are the community of like-minded skippers and the depth of technical information and assistance they can provide.

If you are a beginning skipper, please click on the "Getting started" link to your left and also check out our magazine, the only publication in the country devoted 100% to model yachting.

If you are an experienced skipper, then this is your on-line resource for class rules, technical information, and help in organizing and running events.


So since there is no mention of the required number of boats to make up a multihull class in their stated goals our efforts would "seem" to fall under the Open Class.

So the questions normally asked about this.....
Q1 When and how many dedicated promotions of multihulls take place each year by AMYA?
Q2 When has the Open Class provided information (other than the provided Formula40 photo) used to "hint" at multihull activity
Q3 Any of these support efforts in the last 40 years?

Maybe time for an updated statement - or your workable suggestions on how to make your suggested changes?
Last edited by Dick L.; Sep 04, 2017 at 12:54 PM. Reason: Spelling
Sep 04, 2017, 02:05 PM
Thomas Armstrong
Is there any way to mute threads / posts / authors on this forum???
you both are sucking about 50% of my airtime...
Pls go build and/or sail something....
Sep 04, 2017, 03:55 PM
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Dick L.'s Avatar
Sorry....just skip them if not into multihulls without foils.

Cheers, Dick
Sep 04, 2017, 07:41 PM
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Jim/Dick--I was trying to point out that the present multihull r/c strategy isn't working in the US. And to expect AMYA to independently generate interest or promote multihull sailing is not realistic. AMYA prints materials submitted by its members. You have to supply materials to them.

Most important, given that Dick has been going at this via the web for decades now and no significant progress, I was seriously suggesting a new approach should be considered. Neil Goodrich saved the A class in the US by working with one club and making a simple kit available to be built by its members. It hasn't expanded yet, but it is on solid ground. Perhaps the same could work for a multihull .

Finally, unless you have an affordable stable multihull kit easily available you are likely to have a hard time. Again, talking about boats and class specs on the web hasn't moved the needle. (Dick-how many new classes has Doug proposed and never built over the years?). Finding a builder for a workable kit could go a long way.

Jim, I've been around this for a long time now. I'd be open to buying/building a multihull that doesn't need a chase boat to right it. So far no one in the US has come close to offering that product. Until it does I'm afraid we will be having the same conversation twenty years from now.
If you feel that is being negative, I urge you to do something in the real world to change the situation. I will be the first one to cheer you on...
Sep 04, 2017, 09:22 PM
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Dick L.'s Avatar
Tom - fellow up your way, introduced his "Pop-Up" catamaran design. Very loosely based on the original America's Cup catamaran/boat.. as was his monohull based on the 12 meter designs.
Now, out of business: too costly for the manufacturing of a self-righting multihull.

Jumping to the other end of spectrum---Joysway sold the 65M compliant Force 2 -60 catamaran, along with RipMax - "Orion" in the U.K. Much like the DF65, it was a price leader and had few buyers at under $200 as I recall.
Now: Trying to confirm from Joysway if they intend to have another run on this 65M sized cat All inventories show as sold out.

Unfortunately (maybe fortunately for you) there is no monohull class without a lead keel, so you don't have to worry - unless someone shows up with a canting keel.....but would they be allowed to compete? Not many liberals in IOM, Marblehead or 10Rater ranks ....all conservatives., and why would they allow something that lets a boat go faster than the norm.?

So the fact that we don't buy into lead to slow down our boats means the best we can offer is a masthead device that will allow the cat/tri to gently float to shore on the leeward side of the lake or pond. Of course, as you put it, NOTHING prevents you from building a multihull that includes a weighted keel, or two, or three. Then just let folks know Central Park is holding it's first multihull race....ever!
Sep 04, 2017, 11:25 PM
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Not sure what you are trying to prove or defend. A little history back at ya. 1. Both the Pop Up catamaran and A/C monohull were large, expensive, ugly and slow. A deadly combination. 2. There have been a number of prototype canting keel boats over the years. I even had one built by John Amen for the 36/600 class when it was legal. Fact is that for typical model boat short courses with shifty winds you couldn't cant the keel fast enough to gain enough of a performance advantage to justify the cost and complication and they never caught on. 3. We have had multihulls in Central Park over the years. They all either tipped over or shortened sail so much they couldn't fly a hull and just sat there in our light shifty winds. 4. I have no answers on how to develop serious multihull interest in the US, but I do know that just talking about prospective classes on the web hasn't worked.
Last edited by Tom Corbett; Sep 05, 2017 at 09:19 AM.
Sep 05, 2017, 08:13 AM
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On another forum a number of members bought the Joysway cat and spent a summer sailing, racing, modifying them. They had a lot of fun but at the end of the day the time rescuing them was lost sailing time and they were onsold, retired and it was back to monohulls. For their price they were cheap intro to cat sailing and none that I know regretted having bought one. Mine is still in its box for a play with sometime. Joysway still list them as a production model.
Sep 05, 2017, 09:14 AM
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Dick L.'s Avatar
Found a vendor selling (or trying to) a port hull only for a mere $900+ (US dollars)! They were serious. I pointed out the entire complete boat was around $200 so one could have four complete boats for the price of their single hull.

Please PM me with the websites having stock to sell.

One could also buy a 65M kit from RCSAILS and build their own. Enough of them sailing as well.
Sep 11, 2017, 02:31 PM
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I am not a producer of hulls, for me it is more work than I have the time to produce and promote. I have a normal job and designing and racing model yachts has been a more or less serious pass time. More serious in my 20s and 30s and early 40s. Before I got sick.

I am going to try to design a simple-to-build multihull over the winter, build and test in the spring. In a argument in oppose to Doug's Multi-One preference, the smaller the boat, the less expensive it will be to build, both in material and time to construct.

I know that in the UK the Mini 40 is the most popular multihull. And they race them in groups in Gosport. But remember, the Brits have large ponds, specifically designed for model yacht sailing, within driving distance from each other. For me to travel to Regional Championship or National ones usually requires an airplane trip. Much easier before 9/11. A smaller multihull, one that could be broken down to fit in a small car trunk or a suitcase would make travel to regattas outside a "club" more practical. If the goal is to eventually have a "gathering" or National Championship for racing multihulls, then small boats would be more likely to achieve that goal.

I would also add that lead bulbs set off red lights when trying to take a plane to a regatta. So, that is an argument for mutihulls to skip the idea of adding lead to our small boats, stay with keeping cats and tris for the vary reasons we are trying to promote them. Not make them just fancy monohulls.
Sep 15, 2017, 02:01 PM
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DLord's Avatar

rc multies-size does matter!


Niel, if you haven't already see if you can find someone with a state of the art mini40 and a similar state of the art one meter multi. And then try a smaller multihull. I think you may be surprised by the differences in handling...
Good Luck with your project.....
Sep 15, 2017, 04:49 PM
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Dick L.'s Avatar
You make a point that is also one of the problems..... Size vs. Performance vs. Handling.
Pick any two!

65M size: easy travel, reasonable performance, questionable handling.

1 Meter size: acceptable travel, acceptable performance, reasonable handling.

Mini 40/Formula48 size: problematic travel, good performance, good handling

2 Meter sizs: (very) difficult travel, excellent performance, great handling

Depending on skipper, all can be reasonably stable. Anti-turtle aids can be fitted to all at top of mast. Self righting possible using "endless" side shrouds and line eater separate winch......easier to fabricate for 1 meter or larger. More difficult on the 65M size.

Center keel on trimaran "could" be fitted with lead keel bulb and catamaran could be fitted with a center mounted weighted keel- with acknowledgement of lower performance with weighted keel.

Here in the US any of the above classes could be raced as a one design with minimum weight if desired.

Just some thoughts and observations.......... Feel free to comment.
Sep 16, 2017, 02:30 PM
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DLord's Avatar

Ballast and the Lucky Kid


When I was about thirteen I was really into cats and nobody told me an idea was against my religion-I was simply encouraged to experiment. The first multihull I designed and built was abut 24-30" long and about 12-15" wide. I had been reading everything I could on the design of small (around 14-25' racing catamarans) and it was impressed on me the critical role of BALLAST to make a cat go fast. Ballast is a "go-fast" materiel! Rod McAlpine-Downey was my hero- my model was as close as I could get to the Thai Mk4(?). So I added a wooden rack about 14" long supported by a "trapeze" wire on one side only. There was a small pond(400' wide?) across from our place on Pensacola Beach near the entrance to the weather station. So I took my contraption over there in a 6-8 mph wind and let her go. No questions about "what if she capsizes?" or any other practical questions.
That little model took off like a rocket! I ran as fast as I could to the other side but she beat me there. Then, a while later I put the thing in next to my brothers 15' Windmill in about the same wind and the little cat won.
So I learned early that ballast on model multihulls designed for it produces very high performance. The question becomes how to use the ballast most effectively and whether or not to have the ballast make the boat self righting . Either solution can be fast-the trapeze solution is fastest and there may be a solution halfway between the two.
Sep 17, 2017, 12:05 AM
Registered User
Being a cat sailor myself I have to fish in and say that anything on the trapeze would have to be considered as a move able counter weight. It isn't just ballast in the simple sense of the word. Anything on the trap gives the whole boat a greater righting moment against the heeling moment that the wind is imposing on the rig. If there was some way to put weight out on the trap on an RC boat and have it shift when needed it would definitely be an improvement over simple ballast and or just having the boat lighter in the first place.
Sep 17, 2017, 07:01 AM
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DLord's Avatar

Ballast


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tillerman6
Being a cat sailor myself I have to fish in and say that anything on the trapeze would have to be considered as a move able counter weight. It isn't just ballast in the simple sense of the word. Anything on the trap gives the whole boat a greater righting moment against the heeling moment that the wind is imposing on the rig. If there was some way to put weight out on the trap on an RC boat and have it shift when needed it would definitely be an improvement over simple ballast and or just having the boat lighter in the first place.
=========================

Tillerman, you are absolutely right. I've done such a system on several different boats. The problem is many RC sailors are afraid of more than two channels and the cost in time to learn new skills and the cost in money. It can be done and works exceptionally well.

Trapeze Power Ballast System on Super Scow and D4Z:






D4Z Very Light Air-First Sail! (1 min 19 sec)
Last edited by DLord; Sep 17, 2017 at 07:38 AM.