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Oct 09, 2015, 02:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoboss
It all depends of the endmill condition to be honest. When the endmill is new you will drill slightly bigger holes compared to used endmill (0.01-0.05mm difference).
This kind of tolerance difference can be quite common but it is not an issue unless you have parts that need an impeccable fit such as sunk nuts. Too tight, the CF can be damaged when the sunk nut is inserted, and too loose, well, the nut is loose and we cannot use the part as intended.

Now, I mentioned in a post yesterday that this company has a "western style" management... So expect results and quality to be accordingly...

More about this, as well, in my next post.

Best,
Chris
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Oct 09, 2015, 04:46 AM
OK, onto a more "touchy" subject.... Intellectual property. This may end up being a long post.

I say let's start from the beginning. My name is Chris. I am the founder of Armattan Quads www.armattanquads.com Those who know me well need not to read the following, but others may find some food for thought in what I am about to write here.

Armattan is not a big company. Currently, my wife Natasha and I work full time. We also have a full time tech from The Netherlands. His name is Randy and he only started a couple months ago. Natasha's friend, Andrea, comes in quite often to help out packing and doing runs to the post office, etc.

Here on RCGroups, I have found incredible help along the way. We now have Bmays running what we could call the US based Armattan service and repair center, we have designers working with us on from around the world on an ongoing basis, we have Ralph helping us with advertising and Gino helping us a bit on instagram and also helping me with technical things. We have a big support group in the Armattan threads populated by experienced and highly helpful guys. We have a team of designers working on the new website based in India, and just recently, Michel was hired to manage the website and the web designers. He's done a fantastic job. I find this a bit awkward because I know I can't possibly remember everyone who helped us along the way and who continue to help us.

We're no Immersion RC or TBS. We're a small gang with limited budget compared to these big boys. It used to be only me for a very long time. I have built, singlehandedly, over 2100 quadcopters and I have that many customer videos to prove it. (I make a video for every model I build). I packed them myself, too, and went to the post office myself to ship them.

I think every quadcopter company is on facebook, and they also use many other social medias. We don't. I dislike FB very much and if you look at how many quads I mentioned having built, you can understand that I have limited time to spend online managing social medias. Plus, I do not like computers. I was 30 years old when I got my first email address and it took a few more years before I got my first computer. We may have to take the plunge and use more social medias in the future, but it will not be me managing that or else it won't happen.

I used one and only one place to promote my work, and to this day, it remains this way. RCGroups is the only social media I we have ever used. As mentioned, Armattan started right here, and now I am doing the same thing with this new venture; Armattan Productions.

Back on topic, the question is how is this relevant to designs and the question of intellectual property. In short, are your designs safe with us or will they be used in ways that are considered unethical. Is someone going to steal your work.

Well, it is very relevant. I explained how Armattan came to be and where its grassroots are. So if I may, let me return the question with another question or two for you guys to ponder. What do I stand to lose if I were to allow copying people's material either for others to use, or to sell in our own store? How did I manage to build Armattan right here on RCGroups? I did not achieve this by being greedy and ripping people off. I don't think that would have worked well at all for me. I don't think I would have the opportunity to write this today. The next question is, do you think I would put all that hard work in jeopardy over a design?

Designs are kept in password protected folders and only our engineer gets to see them.

Frankly, and I have said this before. I am more concerned about designers uploading copies and hoping we can cut the parts for them. If we recognize a copied design, we will not approve it. And if it is brought to our attention that a model we cut is a copy, the production will be halted. I plan to implement a report button where people can let us know if they see something uploaded that is copied, but for the time being, manual reporting it has to be.

Also on the topic of intellectual property, I believe that some people are very quick to shout foul if a design they see resembles another design. Think of what happened with the Blackout model. For a while people complained ad hominem and a year later most mini quads were built around the same principles. There is a fine line between copying people's design and using such principles to come up with a different design. It is subjective , and as such, it is a big can of worms.

I personally could not be bothered anymore about disputes over designs and made all our designs open source nearly 2 years ago. I had a big argument over designs and thought to myself "enough."

My philosophy is that people should be free to do what they like. If someone wanted a different center plate for a competitor's model, we'd cut it. If someone wanted to cut the entire frame , we would not. If someone makes enough changes to the design based on his/her subjective idea of what is "cool" or "strong" or "easier to build" etc, then we'll likely cut it.

It is highly subjective a lot of the time, and at this point someone will have the misfortune to make a call on such design submissions/disputes and that will be me. We'll either cut it, or we won't.

We will not allow copying stuff, as much as we will not allow stringent claims of intellectual property over bolts color or over major market trends such as the mini H craze we witnessed and the new X style racer/fpv models craze we're about to see in the coming year.

In any case, this is now a very long post and I will leave it at that. If you have any questions or concerns about anything, I am not a hard person to get a hold of. My addy is service(at)armattanquads(dot)com

Thanks all and now go have fun getting your own projects on the go. You now have access to high end Chinese manufacturing facilities that are foreign run, and I don't think you'll be disappointed with the result.

And of course, we'll keep working hard to make this all go as smooth as possible.

Thanks, all.

Best,
Chris
Oct 09, 2015, 10:18 AM
Hello FloRoto
rcflo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobepine
Flo likes things loose.
hey now... hahaha everything you've posted is well said, except that sir...

Anyways, yeah please note I only do that (3.02mm) on some holes that aren't critical and that are nice to have a screw easily go in (tight places, fc mounts, camera mounts, etc).
Things like arm mounting holes and main frame plates are 3.00mm and it's perfect.

I guess it's just experience you'll get as you get a few frames designed and cut, all mfgs are different. I'm sure this info will be present on the website soon if not already up there

Flo
Oct 09, 2015, 12:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcflo
hey now... hahaha everything you've posted is well said, except that sir...

Flo
There is so much elbow room for a dirty joke here, it's not even funny... Yet very inappropriate.

Best,
chris
Oct 09, 2015, 01:23 PM
InnovationMatters
Daxo's Avatar
I think Chris summed it up really good, manufacturer company reputation is everything and holds the key of company's success, there's no design/designs worth the risk.

I know one thing for sure, my F5 key is getting all warn out from refreshing part quoting page haha (no pressure )



Just a thought, as I'm working on my new design eagerly awaiting quoting and my pay day is getting closer I thought it would be great if there would be an Armattan Production Quality Stamp.


something like this(merely to showcase what I mean, all rights reserved to ShutterStock)



I know I would love to stick A P Q stamp on all of my frame pictures once it's out there so there's no doubt, it's made of the best materials at highest quality cutter
Last edited by Daxo; Oct 09, 2015 at 01:43 PM.
Oct 09, 2015, 01:59 PM
Registered User
Also please note that we do not impose minimum order quantity (MOQ) for carbon fibre and Fr4. But we do have MOQs for the other materials

One thing I'm wondering about (and maybe this is best addressed by some emails & Cad files). There are different flavors of 'parts' & in my limited experience, with cnc & laser job shops, they can treat these quite different with upfront setup charges resulting in dramatic all-in cost variability.

Example 1: I need 100 units of this identical part. That's pretty straight forward. Example 2: I have a single 'project' where each part is slightly different geometry but all from same material/cut sheet. A rough visual analogy is series of varying ribs or formers. In this case, do you revert to a $/mm cut type formula or other factors to be aware of?

Again, if this is best dealt with offline, I'm happy to contact you.
Oct 09, 2015, 02:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ptxman
Also please note that we do not impose minimum order quantity (MOQ) for carbon fibre and Fr4. But we do have MOQs for the other materials

One thing I'm wondering about (and maybe this is best addressed by some emails & Cad files). There are different flavors of 'parts' & in my limited experience, with cnc & laser job shops, they can treat these quite different with upfront setup charges resulting in dramatic all-in cost variability.

Example 1: I need 100 units of this identical part. That's pretty straight forward. Example 2: I have a single 'project' where each part is slightly different geometry but all from same material/cut sheet. A rough visual analogy is series of varying ribs or formers. In this case, do you revert to a $/mm cut type formula or other factors to be aware of?

Again, if this is best dealt with offline, I'm happy to contact you.
Hi,

This question is just fine here. Price is calculated based on several factors.

1- Material overall surface
2-thickness
3- material used
4- Tooling required to cut the design
5- Machining time to get it cut.

EDIT: Let me make this very clear. Let's say that you have a design that requires 7 different thicknesses on a total of 24 parts required to complete assembly. Well, you can order 100 pieces of each of these files or just one of them. Price will be the same. THERE IS NO MOQ. It's that simple.

Let's say you want a keychain in the shape of a logo of your choosing and it is less than 20cm square. You just want one. I'm talking a dime size part with quantity of 1. We will cut and ship it t you, and the price on such a part would be under a dollar. You'll receive an enveleope with a dime size CF part in it. Yes, this is what we're doing here folks... It will take a while to sink in, I reckon... LOL ... Have at it guys...

Best,
Chris
Last edited by bobepine; Oct 09, 2015 at 02:30 PM.
Oct 09, 2015, 03:56 PM
Registered User
I'm thinking about how to make a cell phone case with the top plate of the Morphite V2 as the back... Might take some time to figure out how it'll fit together without being too thick, but I'm determined lol
Oct 09, 2015, 04:23 PM
Skillful

Propellers


Hi
Congratulations on your initiative and energy and all the best for this exciting project.

I am doing some study on propellers and developing a piece of software
for fixed wing aircraft propellers only (so far). I need to get a number of prototypes built in wood or if possible cut from C F.

1/ I can supply prop data as chord and airfoil and angle at each radial station. Can you use the data in this form? If not what sort of files do you need and how would I transform the chord/airfoil data?

2/ Can you cut blades in wood or CF?

Thanks for your help
Oct 09, 2015, 07:18 PM
Registered User

Landing gear for fixed wing


Will this site option be capable of offering metallic items? Shock struts are required at a price to beat current industry high costs for scratch builders like me. Preferably with a variety of pin diameters for axles and retract insertion.
Oct 09, 2015, 07:43 PM
Registered User
JulianGoesPro's Avatar
How cool is that
Oct 10, 2015, 12:59 AM
Registered User
Skillful, lots of liability in making a propeller. In the US, the sharks would be circling from the getgo.

Carving an airfoil shape into a piece of carbon fiber is not the way carbon fiber props are made. It would not be advised to try making one that way.

The airfoil shape needs the strength in the hub and the thin tips. Vibration will cause a failure and cavitation can as well. Slow speeds are more forgiving than high speeds and quad copters are using high speed.
Oct 10, 2015, 01:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RAFster
Skillful, lots of liability in making a propeller. In the US, the sharks would be circling from the getgo.

Carving an airfoil shape into a piece of carbon fiber is not the way carbon fiber props are made. It would not be advised to try making one that way.

The airfoil shape needs the strength in the hub and the thin tips. Vibration will cause a failure and cavitation can as well. Slow speeds are more forgiving than high speeds and quad copters are using high speed.
Echoes my thoughts. I would not trust props made this way. Someone in the US tried making 3D props using thick fiberglass. Looked nice but they just snapped at hight speed or under high load. Definitely a liability concern, there.

And sorry, we do not process wood at this point.

Best,
Chris
Oct 10, 2015, 01:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ratters766
Will this site option be capable of offering metallic items? Shock struts are required at a price to beat current industry high costs for scratch builders like me. Preferably with a variety of pin diameters for axles and retract insertion.
We can process metal, but unlike carbon fiber and fiberglass, there is MOQ for this. I'm not sure what you have in mind, but I suspect it can possibly be done with a sound carbon fiber design using CF sheets and CF tubes. With no MOQ on CF, you can test and improve your design until you're blue in the face.

We have CAD designers who can help with projects like this, by the way, if you do not have the CAD skills.

Best,
Chris
Oct 10, 2015, 12:20 PM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobepine




We have CAD designers who can help with projects like this, by the way, if you do not have the CAD skills.



Best,

Chris

Ok I was wondering about this as well. Is there a fee for CAD or design work? That seems like it could get out of hand with requests quickly. Maybe a network of customers that we can pick each others' brains or get help with designs? I know some will scoff at the idea for intellectual property, but I'm sure there's plenty of people that want to help for the love of the hobby. People that just want to see it grow, and be available to all type thing.


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