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Jun 15, 2015, 11:11 AM
DF65/No Excuses, Just Sailing!
Windward RC's Avatar
Sorry we got 60 days notice on our house lease and have been moving the last week, and lives are in utter chaos!

My opinion of this boat is that it will be a quality Radio sailing machine if the Gang of 3 are involved.

Im sure component level rigs and design will be first rate!

My only question is where the market for this boat will be with the popularity of the one design Dragon Force RG65 . The DF is popular because of price point, sailability, availability, etc

I agree the larger boat market is certainly there, but isnt the Dragon Flite essentially competing with the Dragon Force?
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Jun 15, 2015, 11:24 AM
Registered User
oops
Last edited by Niel1055; Jun 15, 2015 at 11:26 AM. Reason: wrong thread
Jun 15, 2015, 11:48 AM
Registered User
I'm very concerned that the boat to be hurt most by this new design is the Dragon Force. At my local club, the dForce was just starting to catch on and now it's stopped because people are saying, maybe we should go with the larger boat. I'm also concerned about the level of ongoing development and support to expect going forward from Joysway. They seem to be focussing on a constant stream of new products to increase sales rather than growing their existing product revenues. 'It would be nice to hear someone explain how these two products are meant to appeal to different audiences and serve different purposes. Right now they both seem to be focussed on the entry level sailor seeking a lower priced one design type boat....
Jun 15, 2015, 03:58 PM
Registered User
glouis's Avatar
Have to say I love the IOM sure I'm the one resurected the fleet here with 2 others who also believed in it. We have been struggling to get members for years.
Over here the IOM is the main RC class then we have RC laser and RG65 who race at club level only.

Myself and a friend from Northern Ireland have recently setup the A-Class as we have a strong fleet across the pond and for nearly half the price of an IOM.. yes twice the size and half the price... surprised? I'm the first one with one of these boats over here but we have 6 others up North to make up the Irish fleet.

I still really like the IOM but the cost is defo prohibitive. was cost not a reason to stay away from composite such as Carbon and texalium and kevlar and others? that defo kept the price down ... NOT. I like the IOM because of its size and what you can do with the hull shape while still keeping the whole fleet racing together. Up until the chine revolution the boat design age didn't really mater. Sure I still race the good old TS2 and did well against italiko and co... of the time my V6 is still competitive - sure it now lacks in some conditions and heading compare to the more powerful chined designs but just look for a minute at the cost of an IOM for what it is?

Btw my A-Class is nearly twice the size of a IOM, built in Carbon/Kelvar with carbon tappered mast and full carbon booms and also composite sails... still half the price!

So whilst I am struggling to see the purpose of this new boat/class. Unlike the DF it won't fit in the IOM class, the performance is to be seen and so is the price but will this boat/class become the entry level of mid-size RC boat and keep the IOM at the top end... The demise of the M here was the cheer cost... will the IOM suffer the same consequence for the same reason?

One thing for sure there are really good sailors out there and if the IOM becomes a wallet class it will suffer in the medium term and that would be a pity
Jun 15, 2015, 04:14 PM
Kimo
I am getting older and my mind wanders at times but I seem to remember these same type of
talks going on when the DF65 was under development. And look at the DF65 now.
Jun 15, 2015, 04:45 PM
Registered User
glouis's Avatar
May be I wasn't clear but I don't critisice the DF 65 or 95 but here I just question its purpose and where the IOM is going also btw as I discovered the A-Class thanks to Brian a friend of mine from Northern Ireland who started it.... Dam Brian!

and I am veering more towards that class from a sailing, price and helming sensation. Still really like the IOM but start to question the cost and really don't see where the new DF95 will fit in all this...
Jun 16, 2015, 04:10 AM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Weston
To wet the appetite - initial prototype in action earlier this year
Please, please, can we have sails like these on the production version. Just the class logo and no dragons!?
Jun 16, 2015, 04:38 AM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by glouis
Have to say I love the IOM sure I'm the one resurected the fleet here with 2 others who also believed in it. We have been struggling to get members for years.
Over here the IOM is the main RC class then we have RC laser and RG65 who race at club level only.

Myself and a friend from Northern Ireland have recently setup the A-Class as we have a strong fleet across the pond and for nearly half the price of an IOM.. yes twice the size and half the price... surprised? I'm the first one with one of these boats over here but we have 6 others up North to make up the Irish fleet.

I still really like the IOM but the cost is defo prohibitive. was cost not a reason to stay away from composite such as Carbon and texalium and kevlar and others? that defo kept the price down ... NOT. I like the IOM because of its size and what you can do with the hull shape while still keeping the whole fleet racing together. Up until the chine revolution the boat design age didn't really mater. Sure I still race the good old TS2 and did well against italiko and co... of the time my V6 is still competitive - sure it now lacks in some conditions and heading compare to the more powerful chined designs but just look for a minute at the cost of an IOM for what it is?

Btw my A-Class is nearly twice the size of a IOM, built in Carbon/Kelvar with carbon tappered mast and full carbon booms and also composite sails... still half the price!

So whilst I am struggling to see the purpose of this new boat/class. Unlike the DF it won't fit in the IOM class, the performance is to be seen and so is the price but will this boat/class become the entry level of mid-size RC boat and keep the IOM at the top end... The demise of the M here was the cheer cost... will the IOM suffer the same consequence for the same reason?

One thing for sure there are really good sailors out there and if the IOM becomes a wallet class it will suffer in the medium term and that would be a pity

I have sailed all the International classes over the years, the last one being an IOM. It was a Blitz Mk 2 by local designer Lincoln McDowall. Great boat but the size of the race courses and my aged eyesight did not align. I did look at an A class again, but a Sword hull landed in Aus is now around AU$6000 which is about twice the price of my IOM. As regards the place of the DF95, we sail our DF65s in the same fleet as the Micro Magics in both scratch and handicap with no problems. So I see no problem with the DF95 fitting in to the same fleet. If the price is right I can see it complementing the DF65. As I see it the IOM is a wallet class with obsolescence built in. The RG65 is the same but not so expensive. So the DF65 as a One Design is perfect. For those who want a bigger One Design boat then the DF95 should be perfect.
Jun 16, 2015, 11:17 AM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by Radsail
As I see it the IOM is a wallet class with obsolescence built in. The RG65 is the same but not so expensive.
Couldn't disagree more, i have been sailing IOM's for 8 years, sailing a widget (2 years) Lintel (6months) and BP (4 years) any one of these would still be competitive at club and district(regional) level. I also sail a Marblehead that is 15 years old and still competitive. Both of these classes are supported by a group of suppliers based on their international status and long term rules and regulations.

I fear that the DF65 and DF95 will fade away once the sole manufacturer decides that the market can stand a new version and we have the XYZ65 etc.

The DF65 is a good boat as an introduction into the sport but the DF95 is filling a hole that doesn't exist, and I suspect that interest will fade when Jim,/Bob/ Sue find out that the supposedly level playing field doesn't put them anywhere nearer the front of the fleet.

This DF95 class has in built obsolescence in my opinion.

Darin
Jun 16, 2015, 01:43 PM
Registered User
thorsail's Avatar
couldn't disagree more.
"The DF65 is a good boat as an introduction into the sport but the DF95 is filling a hole that doesn't exist, and I suspect that interest will fade when Jim,/Bob/ Sue find out that the supposedly level playing field doesn't put them anywhere nearer the front of the fleet.

This DF95 class has in built obsolescence in my opinion."
.
how can you NOT be at the front of a level playing field, with a production one
design boat ? Everybody is comparing apples to oranges here- this seems to be
a stand alone class boat from a big company.
I would be interested to know how many DF65s have been sold world wide already against how many Victor Soling 1 Meters since they began popping them out of molds.I imagine the amount would be close ? One fourth of the
members in AMYA sail Solings-a class that could die if production ceases.
There's your obsolescence. And all those guys bought in because it was the
cheapest boat that sailed well. Pretty soon those guys will be looking for an
alternative hull-and these they don't even have to build !--- buy it--sail it.
Better look forward guys, there are DForces, DFlights, and someday there
might be Dragon Flames,Dragon Fires and Dragon Farts !
Allan
Jun 16, 2015, 02:53 PM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by thorsail
couldn't disagree more.
"The DF65 is a good boat as an introduction into the sport but the DF95 is filling a hole that doesn't exist, and I suspect that interest will fade when Jim,/Bob/ Sue find out that the supposedly level playing field doesn't put them anywhere nearer the front of the fleet.

This DF95 class has in built obsolescence in my opinion."
.
how can you NOT be at the front of a level playing field, with a production one
design boat ? Everybody is comparing apples to oranges here- this seems to be
a stand alone class boat from a big company.
I would be interested to know how many DF65s have been sold world wide already against how many Victor Soling 1 Meters since they began popping them out of molds.I imagine the amount would be close ? One fourth of the
members in AMYA sail Solings-a class that could die if production ceases.
There's your obsolescence. And all those guys bought in because it was the
cheapest boat that sailed well. Pretty soon those guys will be looking for an
alternative hull-and these they don't even have to build !--- buy it--sail it.
Better look forward guys, there are DForces, DFlights, and someday there
might be Dragon Flames,Dragon Fires and Dragon Farts !
Allan

I'm not sure of the latest numbers but it will be circa 8,000 in well under 2 years, World wide. There are new rc clubs in the UK with over 45 DF65's. Mike Weston will have the real numbers. Joysway have commited to supporting the DF65 for many years to come.

What suits some, won't suit others, the world's a big place!
Last edited by BuzzColeman; Jun 16, 2015 at 03:05 PM.
Jun 16, 2015, 10:32 PM
Registered User
Just as a point of interest, in Australia, we have 236 RG65's registered on our "unofficial" register, and of those, 183 are DF65's. A lot of yachts out there. We have just got to get them on the water.
Jun 17, 2015, 03:55 PM
Registered User
glouis's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Radsail
. I did look at an A class again, but a Sword hull landed in Aus is now around AU$6000 which is about twice the price of my IOM.
So you paid an IOM for 3G that is exactly my point... I'm sure you can spend more I've seen boat going for over 2500 which is obsene money for an IOM...


I paid 550 for my sweet9 second hand complete with 4 set of sails in good conditions and ready to race... which is carbon/kevlar hull by the way and I just had to add a RX and my TX... Like in any sport you can spend as much as your wallet can afford... but will you get better results?

Let track back here for a minute some of the fundamental elements of the IOM class rules to start with was exactly the opposite of what's going on now... to keep the cost down no carbon mast, no carbon booms or carbon hulls or composite Kelvar hulls. Proof is that I got the latest design A class from Peter complete for half the price of an IOM and I can keep up with GB sword in my first ever race in A class. with a bit more time on the water with it I'll match the Sword which is also obsene money.

And since you're in Australia you should contact Frank he designs really good IOM, 10R and A-Class boats which I'm sure won't hit these mad sum of money. I know I race his XP design and can keep up with boats 3 time its price like the BP, V8, v9, Cheinz. it's not all in the boat or the money you spend. It's what you do with your thumbs... Don't get me wrong I love the IOM I think it is a cracking class but the tendency recently has gone for expensive boats that's all. While there are really good designs out there like Frank's design which are as good.

Whilst I see the DF65 I still can see the DF95 be as successful. May be I'll be proven wrong and it will be so successful a good number of IOM sailors will leave IOM to move to DF95 due to the cost.
Last edited by glouis; Jun 17, 2015 at 04:02 PM.
Jun 22, 2015, 04:29 PM
Rum River watershed
CanoeBeyond's Avatar
Some background: I've been reading the RC sailing forums for the last month or so and am very interested in joining the sport. Have some sailing experience from long ago and do quite a bit of RC flying of various craft. I loved sailing, but the time required and expense made me give it up for years. Now I'm 65 and retired.

After a lot of reading, to me the DF65 and Nirvana looked most interesting. Both seem to be well made and affordable (comments gladly invited). If the Nirvana was more popular I'd probably go with it, but who could I possibly race with (which I would probably want to do)?

The 1 meter looked interesting but the cost for a competitive boat seemed excessive to me. More background: I've raced canoes for years and in the proboat class (fastest class) a set of well thought out rules keeps many designs competitive at a competitive price. A 18'6" carbon fiber proboat costs a maximum of $5500 new and good boats that are just as fast can be bought used for around $1500 or less. The beauty of this is that everyone is on a relatively equal playing field. The rich guy can't outspend the rest of the paddlers to win. The record times in the 2 largest international races are still held by a couple of paddlers in a 1970s design. This is also true in the stock class except that competitive boats can be acquired for even less money (often $700 or less for a good used 18'6" canoe). These are a couple of the beauties of canoe racing for me (not true of the kayak classes BTW). Personally I can't see trying to spend my way to race wins.

For the reasons above the DragonFlite 95 (if it becomes popular with its own class) seems like a great way to get into larger class sailing without either breaking the bank or having to compete against those trying to spend their way to a victory. Really like the pictures posted (in semi windy? conditions). A couple videos would be nice too.

I've noticed newbie posts are sometimes met with derision and judgement. Probably would have dropped the whole idea of RC sailing if it wasn't for the helpful posts of people such as Boomer1 (and a few others). Just like in everything else, everyone is new at some time. Maybe we don't know much but we'd like to learn and also express our needs. Anyway, I've given the perspective of one guy who's very interested in joining the sport. Civil comments welcomed, uncivil OK too but possibly expect a return in kind. Thanks for listening.
Jun 22, 2015, 05:05 PM
Registered User
Often repeated, but the best advice to someone new to r/c yacht racing is to find a local club and sail what they do. Usually there is a ton of local knowledge and used boats to be had. Sailing by yourself or starting a club from scratch is a hard thing to do no matter what type of boat you choose.

One other minor thing-- don't judge a boat's popularity or penetration by postings on the Internet. I would guess that over the years they have sold three times as many Nirvanas as DragonForces. R/c Laser is over 20k worldwide. By far the most popular class in the AMYA is the small soling and no one posts about them here. And finally, like your canoe, a good used IOM, the most popular class in the world, can be had for around $1500 U.S.

Good luck and enjoy.
Last edited by Tom Corbett; Jun 22, 2015 at 05:10 PM.