View Poll Results: F3B 2015 RC Soaring Proposals
a) Yes, Definition of an Attempt 8 80.00%
a) No, Definition of an Attempt 0 0%
a) Indifferent, Definition of an Attempt 1 10.00%
b) Yes, Definition of an Attempt 7 70.00%
b) No, Definition of an Attempt 0 0%
b) Indifferent, Definition of an Attempt 2 20.00%
c) Yes, Organisation of Starts 10 100.00%
c) No, Organisation of Starts 0 0%
c) Indifferent, Organisation of Starts 0 0%
d) Yes, Safety rules 7 70.00%
d) No, Safety rules 0 0%
d) Indifferent, Safety rules 3 30.00%
e) Yes, Definition 8 80.00%
e) No, Definition 1 10.00%
e) Indifferent, Definition 1 10.00%
f) Yes, Launching 1 10.00%
f) No, Launching 8 80.00%
f) Indifferent, Launching 1 10.00%
g) Yes, Launching 6 60.00%
g) No, Launching 3 30.00%
g) Indifferent, Launching 1 10.00%
h) Yes, Launching 7 70.00%
h) No, Launching 1 10.00%
h) Indifferent, Launching 2 20.00%
i) Yes, Launching 6 60.00%
i) No, Launching 0 0%
i) Indifferent, Launching 4 40.00%
j) Yes, Launching 2 20.00%
j) No, Launching 8 80.00%
j) Indifferent,Launching 0 0%
k) Yes, Site 10 100.00%
k) No, Site 0 0%
k) Indifferent, Site 0 0%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 10. You may not vote on this poll

Thread Tools
Mar 12, 2015, 07:43 PM
Terry Edmonds
Thread OP
Poll

2015 FAI Rules Proposals


Attached is the F3 RC Soaring section of the 2015 FAI agenda. There are eleven F3B proposals in the document. I am going to try doing a poll for all eleven in this single thread rather than creating many multiple polls. There are three options for each proposal, Yes, No and Indifferent. Please only USA F3B participants vote as the results will assist in forming a USA position on each one.


image icon Files
Last edited by tedmonds; Mar 26, 2015 at 02:52 PM.
Sign up now
to remove ads between posts
Mar 23, 2015, 05:48 PM
Registered User
Terry could use some more input in this poll. Especially for (f !?!?).

Tom
Mar 23, 2015, 06:54 PM
Registered User
tewatson's Avatar
Done.

Tom
Mar 26, 2015, 02:02 AM
Registered User
Bump
Mar 26, 2015, 09:22 AM
Registered User
I am strongly against reducing the distance to the turnarounds to 150 meters. It does not solve the problem of duration often not being a differentiator. All it does is force people to get lighter and more expensive models. The trend is already toward lighter F3B models so already the objective of this proposal will not be met (in early morning conditions I can get over 10 minutes with 150 meter all mono launch lines with my 63 oz Fosa Lift). To provide more separation in the duration task, adopting the start height concept from F5J is the best solution in my opinion. The devices already exist for doing this, so I'm not sure why this wouldn't be possible to implement today. The only thing that needs to be sorted is what the scoring multipliers should be. Using this approach would bring the tactical aspect of duration up to a similar level as distance and speed and have a significant effect on scoring.

Reducing the distance to the turnarounds will increase the luck factor for the Distance task and especially the Speed task. The speed lottery is already a weakness in F3B. Exaggerating the discrepancy between someone who gets the air for speed and someone who doesn't would be a big step in the wrong direction.

Tom
Mar 26, 2015, 10:04 AM
F3B and F3K
RetoF3X's Avatar
I concur with what Tom said. The reduction of the distance to the turnarounds to 150m is a horrible proposal that will not achieve its aim (making duration more interesting).

It will only lead to ever more fragile, ultralight models that can do the 10minutes in morning air with the reduced launch heights. Some models already exist that can do so. The net effect is that nothing is changed in the duration task.

However, in speed and distance, thermal lottery will have even more importance, as the pilot is striped off options he would have with more launch height. In distance you sometimes have to survive bad air and stay aloft till something usefull comes on course. In speed when you have no useful air, you can at least do something with your launch height. Taking away launch height will further favor the lucky pilot who has the good air on course on his slot.

Duration as is can be made much more interesting if the CD is flexible and let duration be flown when the weather is active (or bad). Then it is plenty selective.

In calm air, it is better to fly distance or speed instead of duration, as they will intriniscally provide separation.

Best,
Reto
Last edited by RetoF3X; Mar 26, 2015 at 01:04 PM.
Mar 26, 2015, 01:39 PM
or GPS, F, J, K, or even TD
FLY F3B's Avatar
Done
Mar 26, 2015, 02:45 PM
MCS / NCSS / SVSS / LSC / SAM
David Olson's Avatar
Done
Mar 26, 2015, 07:41 PM
Registered User
Done
Mar 26, 2015, 09:35 PM
Registered User
mlachow's Avatar
Don't fly duration task during neutral conditions.

A few point tweak would be f3j landing tape. But if you have 150m, then it is starting to look like f3j to someone who doesn't understand everything.

We haven't seen anyone demonstrate a contest with the 150m lines.

An alternate would be to back off winch power a little like 25 milliohms.
Latest blog entry: Is-4 Jastrzab Build
Mar 27, 2015, 05:46 AM
Registered User
Absolutely agree that reducing the distance to turnround to 150m is a bad proposal and will not solve problemm. Agree F5J system scoring in Duration is the way to go go if can be made to work.
Mr Decker says no system is available? Suggest wait to next rule change in 2 years to allow system to be developed.
GB will be voting against this at CIAM Hope most others will do the same
Mar 27, 2015, 07:14 AM
Alex Hoekstra's Avatar
Just a suggestion. I haven't flown f3b since 1997 but stil interested.....

What if you would have to choose 1 flying/take-off weight and do all 3 task with the same weight. This would lead to heavier thermal planes or lighter and slower speeds. Do you take the risk to go heavy or less risk and go light. It could make things interesting. You could allow a 10 or 20 gram trim weight for CG change but for there rest stay like you started the round.
Mar 27, 2015, 09:41 AM
Terry Edmonds
Thread OP
Thanks for jumping in with more votes. You guys make it a lot easier for me with a pretty clear majority on most items.
Terry
Mar 27, 2015, 01:41 PM
In F3J size does matter!
roydor's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Hoekstra
What if you would have to choose 1 flying/take-off weight and do all 3 task with the same weight. This would lead to heavier thermal planes or lighter and slower speeds. Do you take the risk to go heavy or less risk and go light. It could make things interesting. You could allow a 10 or 20 gram trim weight for CG change but for there rest stay like you started the round.
What if a minimum wing loading rule of a higher value was introduced?
The current low wing loading rule is so low that it doesn't limit designs at all, if it was to be raised to 40 g/dm^2 or even to 45 it would make duration more difficult without affecting the speed and distance tasks (most are around 32-35 for duration today). Cheaper materials can be used ("regular"carbon in the skins for example) and lower skill level will be required to build the models.

Just a thought

Roy
Mar 27, 2015, 02:44 PM
F3B and F3K
RetoF3X's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Hoekstra
Just a suggestion. I haven't flown f3b since 1997 but stil interested.....

What if you would have to choose 1 flying/take-off weight and do all 3 task with the same weight. This would lead to heavier thermal planes or lighter and slower speeds. Do you take the risk to go heavy or less risk and go light. It could make things interesting.
Hi Alex

This has been done in Fly offs in F3B Eurotour contests. It was actually well received and fun ( the winner flew all tasks empty and still squeezed out a good speed!).

It worked for a small group (10 pilots), but for a large contest (100 pilots), where a complete round can take a day, the choice of model weight would not be based on knowledge, but pure luck ( it may fit depending when you will fly or not). There is no way to predict the weather for a whole day beforehand.

It would also not be fair. Say pilot A is early up in duration and speed thus will be able to fly light, pilot B who is first in duration and last in speed ( say in now strong wind) will have no chance.


Best,
Reto
Last edited by RetoF3X; Mar 27, 2015 at 02:50 PM.


Quick Reply
Message:

Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Category Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Poll 2015 FAI F3B Rules Proposals tedmonds Multi Task F3X 1 Mar 12, 2015 08:10 PM