Joysway Force2 60 RC Catamaran - Page 5 - RC Groups
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Aug 06, 2014, 11:54 AM
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MrP thanks for the preliminary report, as expected there will be some issues with the initial production
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Aug 06, 2014, 02:05 PM
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Dick L.'s Avatar
Arrived today - noon, Central Time Zone (USA). 8.8 lb shipping weight.

Following from the enclosed manual (201405 Version)

Length = 661 mm
Beam = 400 mm
(2) Masts and mainsails
"A" Mast = 832 mm
"A" Rigging total height = 1117 mm
"A-" Mast = 687 mm
"A-" rigging total height = 972 mm
RTR Total weight = 1050 g (with/without batteries = ???)
Jib Sail Area = 4.55 dm2
"A" Mainsail area = 14.62 dm2
"A-" Mainsail area = 12.13 dm2
"A " sail area overall = 19.87 dm2
"A-" sail area overall = 16.68 dm2

Joysway could save a few $$$ on production costs - printed hull decals could be on sheet of release paper and let owner apply.

Joysway could save a few $$$ on production costs - print sail graphics on release paper and include two full sets of sail numbers and white (unprinted) sails. Let owner apply......then there is only one boat #19 on the water. My oldest (16 yrs.) grandson will like it, because his RG65 monohull is also #19.

* batteries (not included) are required to be purchased.


May be a while before I get it assembled and ready for the water. Good to see "others" also note that a faster arm winch may be needed. Hope there is room, as it would be my recommendation - especially if it is identical to the DF65 winch - which is way too slow for a multihull. Make a note - OK to change winch to arm type or faster drum! Otherwise you may have a bunch of "unhappy campers" if they keep tipping over.
Aug 06, 2014, 02:21 PM
Thomas Armstrong
Aug 06, 2014, 02:55 PM
DF65/No Excuses, Just Sailing!
Windward RC's Avatar
Dick L , interesting that they have an A and an A- and two masts...

I agree though about the sail thing... its kind of what the Asian Mass marketers do... i.e. decorate the sails... not a big fan of that.

hopefully as we move forward on the DF since its clear that sales are driven by the folks who want to race them...we can get Joysway to include blank white sails, and maybe a number sheet or at least a template.

Ill be interested to see just how many folks are interested in racing the Cats or who are just buying them as a "fun" boat
Aug 06, 2014, 03:33 PM
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Dick L.'s Avatar

Cat Thoughts


Actually, there is one long mast section, and two shorter sections which (I suppose) make up the different mast heights. Mast parts look to be pultruded, but each end has a metal ring to (hopefully) avoid mast end splitting issues.

Nice to announce this one came with the new (??) / much better stainless type of turnbuckles and threaded rod instead of the original DF65 style of plastic parts for the vang.

Plastic parts look to have a nice finish, but the double hatches (one on each hull) that have potential to leak may be a concern. I usually use Dacron sail number tape, so it won't be too much of an issue, but would be nice to have an easy to remove/replace hatch cover that would also seal.

Has a push/pull wire out the stern to turn receiver on/off. I suppose this is similar to the DF65 type, and maybe a rubber boot might be needed if sailing in high winds.

A couple of running rigging suggested instructions as suspect, and I will probably skip the Dyneema/Spectra line in favor of my old, trust, black Dacron braided line that holds knots and that you can feel between old fingers.

Want to check (later) the cross beams to hull fastening - and while you would give up some traveling space, gluing the cross beams in place might stiffen the platform and remove any/some flex. Got a deal with wife to clean up my work area first, so some things I touched or looked at, and will get back to them later.

Regarding the sails, I may purchase a one piece mast section of same diameter, that is full height RG65 length. Then I can go to a "true A size" mainsail. I have some Cuben sail material (0.74 oz) I've been saving, and may use it for very light wind days. Also have some florescent pink, green and yellow nylon for other sail sets.

Already mentioned the sail winch possible replacement. Hulls are packed upside down so haven't been able to remove them yet. When I do turn over and look at the top of the hulls and cross beam, I may see if I can manufacture a fitting that would insert into mast hole - but go forward and have a carbon tube to fit a swing rig.

As others get their shipments, I am sure they will offer their observations and thoughts. As they post, it would be great to know .....race or day-sail or both.

For me it is obvious, however I now must get my butt in gear and get the RG65 finished that has been waiting.
Aug 06, 2014, 03:36 PM
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Dick L.'s Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Windward RC
hopefully as we move forward on the DF since its clear that sales are driven by the folks who want to race them...we can get Joysway to include blank white sails, and maybe a number sheet or at least a template.
If you are involved in redoing the website for the RG65 "family" I think I posted way back in 2008 or so, a set of numerals that could be used for template, logo and USA designation. I can't remember/get my old sign-on and pass word and will probably just wait until new site is done. The Yahoo site and it's administration when I was doing it was a real PITA !
Aug 06, 2014, 04:24 PM
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Based on the prototypes, you won't get any benefit from glueing as the fit is spot on just check the fixings are tight. The beams should be sealed at the beam socket joint as there are cables running through the rear beam. Glueing this would also stop repair or replacement at a later date.

As for the winch, the biggest problem is friction as there are 4 rings to go through. I originally thought the winch was not powerful anough but a stronger winch changed nothing. I have found steering a far better way of depowering and powering back up. The winch is fast anough to dump power but slower to recover. Not much an issue to start with.
Aug 06, 2014, 04:50 PM
Thomas Armstrong
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick L.
Regarding the sails, I may purchase a one piece mast section of same diameter, that is full height RG65 length. Then I can go to a "true A size" mainsail. I have some Cuben sail material (0.74 oz) I've been saving, and may use it for very light wind days. Also have some florescent pink, green and yellow nylon for other sail sets.
Beware: rigs for cats are not tall because the risk of tipping over. If you have a long mast, even a small puff can tip your boat over... and a nice afternoon turns into a rescue mission!
Aug 06, 2014, 08:29 PM
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Dick L.'s Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by tarmstro
Beware: rigs for cats are not tall because the risk of tipping over. If you have a long mast, even a small puff can tip your boat over... and a nice afternoon turns into a rescue mission!
Tom - may want to take a walk along a beach and take a look at the size of catamaran masts compared to actual overall length. Hobie 16 foot boats ran with 28 foot masts. Similar for Prindle and NACRA. My 18 sq. meter was 18 feet in length and came with a 31 foot mast. Supercat was similar in length vs. mast height.

The very nature of a catamaran being 8 feet (or more) wide - mine was 11 feet wide - is that it provides a very stable platform compared to a narrower monohull boat. This stability is evident in the platform being very stable right side up - or wrong side down. In either case it takes considerably more wind to tip a cat over sideways compared to a monohull. Likewise design changes have greatly reduced pitchpole tendencies with better distributed hull buoyancy, rounded, water shedding decks, wave piercing bows rigs set further back and longer bows forward of the front cross-beam, and in the case of foils ....... having an upward foil force to counteract a downward hull/sail/wind force on the leeward hull.

I would never doubt the issue of afternoon rescue missions.

In one video, the Joysway cat (in pretty strong wind) is sailing directly downwind - in a wing and wing form. A broad, or deep reach is a preferred method as it is easier to steer "down" and sheet in to depower if needed. Wing and wing has no "escape" if pressed into a forward pitchpole. A good multihull friend once told me ..... "Down is down and up is up" - meaning feathering up in really heavy gusts will slow you down, but remove sail area exposed to wind (See Buzz Coleman's remarks about steering above) while in lighter winds where a tip over isn't of major concern, steering down might take you away from your weather mark goal, but it increases speed and VMG and at the same time apparent wind swings forward and you can either begin to point up higher if needed, or fall off a bit more for even more boat speed.

For those that will be new to multihull sailing (cat or tri) speed (VMG - velocity made good) and apparent wind are major factors in getting around a course fast.

In most monohull racing, tacking is critical for tactics, and in multihull racing, there ARE tactics - but speed on long legs are most important. Fewer tacks = long legs at maximum speed. "Banging the corners" usually results in good legs. Hard to see that in one-on-one match racing like last AC regatta - but very visible in fleet racing. Seldom does one win a leg tacking up the center of the leg/course.

Just my personal opinions, of course.
Last edited by Dick L.; Aug 06, 2014 at 08:32 PM. Reason: spelling
Aug 06, 2014, 10:43 PM
Registered User
I have had the chance to inspect a mate's Force2 this morning....
(mine is still in transit )

A couple of areas previously mentioned were the flex between hulls and a reasonable amount of water getting into the boat.

Having had a look and a bit of a pontificate I think the water entry is likely to be in through the cross members that join the hulls together. All four places that the cross members join the hull there is an aperture into the hull. Some of these are necessary for cables from hull to hull.

The cross members are of sandwich type construction, held together with many screws. Each end of the cross member attaches to the hull with two screws. From a visual (without any disassembly) there looks too be absolutely no waterproofing effort anywhere on the cross member. Water getting into anywhere on either cross member will clearly finish up in one of the hulls as far as I can tell....

I think the construction of the cross members is also the reason for the hull flex....

When mine arrives I am planning to dismantle the cross members and work out a means of waterproofing....
Aug 06, 2014, 11:59 PM
Registered User
Water can not enter the hull from the forward beam as there is no hole through the hull. The aft beam cable exit should be sealed in the beam. I added electrical tape along the joint to reduce water ingress to the beams.
Aug 07, 2014, 12:23 AM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by BuzzColeman
Water can not enter the hull from the forward beam as there is no hole through the hull. The aft beam cable exit should be sealed in the beam. I added electrical tape along the joint to reduce water ingress to the beams.
Buzz,
The photo I posted IS one of the forward beams. We shone a light forward from the hatch and could see the light inside the hull.......
Aug 07, 2014, 03:10 AM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrpenguin
Buzz,
The photo I posted IS one of the forward beams. We shone a light forward from the hatch and could see the light inside the hull.......
The two pictures attached are from the first prototype but are the same in respect to the plug and socket beam attachment.

The cable exit should be sealed which was incorporated in the second prototype at my request. The beams are held in with two fixings per coupling. If needed release these screws and add a smear of silicon grease or sealant round the socket or plug prior to refitting. This joint is an exact fit, the wonders of 3D CAD modeling!

The second picture shows the sockets with a hole for cable entry visible on the rear mount only. Not the greatest picture but the best i could find quickly. I have hundreds from development but am pushed for time as usual.

Hope this help, just ask if you need more information.

Oh and I am still waiting to see what comes in the box, hopefully next week.
Aug 07, 2014, 05:36 AM
Registered User
Ordered mine from hobbywarehouse in Melbourne yesterday at 9am, delivered to my house (country South Australia) 1pm today! Awesome service.
First impressions are good, but will pull apart on the weekend to ensure that it is water tight before first sail.

AB
Aug 07, 2014, 10:10 AM
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Dick L.'s Avatar
@Buzz Coleman

Buzz - there was a video floating around of the cat as a prototype I believe (???)

Any chance you might know what the prototype weight was during the filming of the video? I'm a bit undecided about a total weight listed in specs as 1050 g (with or without batteries?) and until I get mine on the water, was wondering if too heavy for light stuff, too light for heavy winds, etc. I will probably run it against my RG65 and see comparisons, but thought you might know/recall?

The DF65 gross weights reported seem to run from 1200 to 1400 g

Thanks, Dick


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