Fire Arrow Foiling Trimaran Test Model - Page 5 - RC Groups
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Jul 11, 2015, 07:33 PM
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I race em' and buy 'em, never claimed to build them and I certainly never made extraordinary claims of "world's first" design breakthroughs. However, I have spent enough time with both big boat and r/c yacht designers and builders to know the difference between them and Doug Lord. Mr. Lord has been singing the same song for years now and in so many places. Feel free to believe in Doug and his "breakthrough" boats if you like, I simply disagree...
Last edited by Tom Corbett; Jul 12, 2015 at 12:37 AM.
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Jul 11, 2015, 08:54 PM
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Fire Arrow Foiler / MPX Foil System Testing and Development


Corbett, just more trash from you! My spinnaker boats were the first production rc spinnaker boats ever and worked very well. My F3 was the first production rc foiler in history and worked perfectly. With me sailing it,it beat every monohull it ever raced against around a course by a large margin. My F3 was featured on the cover of Model Yachting and Rich Matt bought one! My Flyer 3 trimaran design was used by no less than Dr. Sam Bradfield to test foil configurations and wand systems for his 40' SKAT .
You don't know the first thing about RC foilers-you've never designed and built one yet you try to talk authoritatively about them. When it comes to my rc boats you simply don't know what you're talking about. You certainly don't have a clue about the Fire Arrow design which is the first trimaran of any size in history to use TNZ inspired UptiP foils on the amas and the first trimaran of any size anywhere at any time to use a wand controlled main foil coupled with UptiP ama foils.

Advanced RC Designs by Doug Lord (1 min 7 sec)


Pictures,L to R-1) America One and the Spinnaker 50, 2) &3) the F3 foiler, 4) Flyer3 foiling on Bradfields test foils, 5) F3 on the cover of Model Yachting, 6) Fire Arrow:
Last edited by DLord; Jul 11, 2015 at 09:03 PM.
Jul 11, 2015, 09:03 PM
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Dick L.'s Avatar
@ Tom -

better to leave me out of discussions, if you would, please? Since I am looking at a possible purchase of a used F3 trimran foiler from back in the days when they showed they could sail, any of my comments might be perceived as a conflict in interest - especially considering my possible need for tech support from Doug. I did sail the one I am considering from a local sailor, some years ago, and my comments then remain valid today .... water weeds on foils will be an issue and a lot of water drag if winds go light during a race, and a monster beam which I still wonder if necessary. If (when) Doug gets his D4Z on the water, the beam is much narrower and one will be able to tell if the ultra wide beam is really needed. BUT - until I proceed with the purchase, I will be content to sit back, keep my mouth closed and simply wait and watch.

Dick.
Jul 11, 2015, 09:08 PM
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Fire Arrow Foiler / MPX Foil System Testing and Development


Fire Arrow-first foiling July 24th, 2014 in a 5mph(4.34 knots) breeze. First trimaran in history to use her foil configuration featuring UptiP ama foils and wand controlled main foil:

Jul 11, 2015, 11:56 PM
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I think Doug's recent posts just made my case for me.....regardless, for those interested in a good chuckle, check out the sailing anarchy forums thread on r/c multi hulls, most fun reading you can find on the web....
Jul 17, 2015, 05:03 PM
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Fire Arrow Foiler / MPX Foil System Testing and Development


Tentative sailing of Fire Arrow Tuesday or Friday next week. We're running out of time for Dan to take pictures and it's looking like we could get the D4Z and Fire Arrow tested on one or the other day-earlier it looked like Tuesday would be best for the trimaran and Friday best for the cat-we'll see.
Jul 18, 2015, 12:49 PM
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Fire Arrow Foiler / MPX Foil System Testing and Development


I've been considering doing this for a long time and today I started a process that will take thru Monday to complete. I shortened the foils 6" so that now they are at minimum wetted surface for the lateral resistance that the boat needs. And the draft will make it much easier to launch the model.
For the fullsize version max draft goes from 6.8' to 5' board down.
This was a scary operation on the daggerboard because it has a pushrod running inside to allow the wands to control the mainfoil flap. I was able to cut the board and get access to the lower portion of the pushrod much more simply than I thought it would be. Now reassembly- today and tomorrow. I have a small carbon tube that fits perfectly which I'll use to rejoin the pushrod. Extreme care has to be used in rejoining both boards but particularly with the main foil so that the angle of incidence of the foil is not inadvertently changed or the travel of the pushrod changed.
Going well so far......
UPDATE: second to last two pictures show boards fitted back together in a make-do jig and carbonated:
UPDATE: Pulled both boards from the jigs and they turned out well. Pushrod on daggerboard works perfectly:
UPDATE: Both foils final carbonation complete. Cosmetics tomorrow, sailing likely Tuesday....
UPDATE 7/23/15-Last two pictures show the finished foils and the mainfoil before the mods and flap endplates. Looks good for tomorrow-Friday 7/24/15- early-wind guru forecast 10 knots with 16 knot gusts:
Last edited by DLord; Jul 23, 2015 at 10:26 AM.
Jul 24, 2015, 09:56 AM
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Fire Arrow Foiler / MPX Foil System Testing and Development


Today is the one year anniversary of the first foiling video of the Fire Arrow and Dan and I had hoped we could do the second one today. No such luck, though we were encouraged by the forecast from wind guru for 11-17 from the SSW. Unfortunately, when we left at 7AM the wind was from the right direction but the max measured on my Davis windmeter was 5-6 knots. And when we got to the site it was max 4 knots. Most disappointing. Next chance for either the Fire Arrow or D4Z is next Tuesday.
Jul 24, 2015, 11:54 AM
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I believe the correct statement is that today is the one year anniversary since this boat last sailed, a significant difference.
Jul 24, 2015, 12:28 PM
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Fire Arrow Foiling System Testing and Development


Why do you waste your time here? You simply have no clue what you are talking about.
Last edited by DLord; Aug 11, 2015 at 06:04 PM.
Jul 24, 2015, 02:21 PM
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Dick L.'s Avatar
Doug - not to "pile on" but ........ what happens when winds are light (5-6 kts) on day of a scheduled regatta? Do all owners sit around and tell "lies" instead of sailing/racing? I am wondering why you were such a prime promoter of a class of boat with such restrictive wind condition windows? Usually when someone goes through the trouble (and costs) to build something like this, they want to be able to sail it.....if not, are old videos of the boat sailing good enough?

My point being is that those who have (or may be) waiting for a successful sail will have lost a significant amount of interest in the project - and probably will resort (hopefully) to Mini40/F48, MultiONE or M65 multihulls WITHOUT foils - in order to experience multihull sailing. As of now, I certainly can't conclude this "test" a success. Sorry !

Dick
Jul 24, 2015, 04:01 PM
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Fire Arrow Foiling System Testing and Development


Dick, first of all: the Fire Arrow is an exact scale Test Model-not a prototype for any model class. The D4Z is also a Test Model-serving as a test platform for movable ballast but primarily a test platform for hydrofoils. The D4Z is specifically designed for testing, not racing but the stuff that is learned from the testing will hopefully help make the AC4.8 a viable class down the line.
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I went to a lot of trouble last year to assure that the first test of the Fire Arrow on foils was in a 5mph breeze because the foils were designed to start working in that low a breeze-and they worked perfectly on July 24th,2014. This time I did my best to see to it that this test with the reefed rig(cut down main) would be in over 10mph of breeze-preferably in the 11-to 17 knot range that was forecast. When Dan and I got to the test site and the wind was 4 knots over about a half hour we called it off because we'd already done several tests in light wind.
It's important at this stage of development to get performance information in the conditions we need for testing -not just to go sailing. My crew, Dan, who takes the pictures and video is busy and I'm lucky to have his help-but doing stuff we've already done is not in the program. This boat program is not about producing models for anyone-it is about testing a specific foil configuration in as carefully controlled a set of conditions as possible-that is the only thing that matters in this particular case.
The first foiling we did last July 24th was very significant in that a 21lb test model foiled in a 5mph(4.34knots) breeze which validated the foil systems in those conditions. Much was learned about the foil configuration with the most important being that the combination of UptiP ama foils and a wand controlled main foil consisting of two independent altitude control systems worked perfectly in very light air. The Fire Arrow foil configuration is one of a kind and has never been used on another trimaran in the history of mankind-and those first excellent results last year were very encouraging making that test on foils very successful.
=============
The exact same method applies to the D4Z-for it's first sail with the very, very experimental Batfoils-- it will be sailed in as close to a 5mph breeze or less to start with-regardless of how long that takes.
Dan and I have on going major problems so finding the time in the right conditions is very difficult but under no circumstances will the test method be varied -at least until we know what we've got.
Last edited by DLord; Aug 11, 2015 at 05:57 PM.
Jul 24, 2015, 06:25 PM
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Dick L.'s Avatar
You really didn't answer my question. "IF" you have foils that work in 4+ - but regatta winds are less, does everyone sit around on their thumbs ---- or what? I really fail to see the point of your " testing"---either it foils or it doesn't. Why the drama? We know (I guess to some degree) that it will foil in 5 mph winds. What purpose is the 11 mph test? What does it accomplish - especially if you are reducing power by making the sail area smaller? Are you "suggesting" that it won't foil without reduced sail area if winds are 11 mph or more?

Again, I just don't see what the issue is in "testing" - other than to perhaps bore some potential folks with the +/- 2 mph wind windows.

Just sayin'

Dick
Last edited by Dick L.; Jul 24, 2015 at 06:26 PM. Reason: spelling
Jul 24, 2015, 07:51 PM
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Fire Arrow Foiling System Testing and Development


In the 11 to 17 knot wind forecast for today the wind force on the reefed rig could be over 3 times the force on the rig in a 4.34knot(5mph) wind. That is why it needs testing. For the first time it would be operating near it's maximum righting moment which could be exceeded in gusts forcing the mainfoil to automatically generate downforce for the duration of the gust(as well as requiring more lift from the lee UptiP ama foil). Very important to test.
The reason foiling in a 5 mph wind is important is to have as wide a range of foiling on the full size boat as possible.

PS- for the fullsize Fire Arrow class there would be no racing in under about 4.34 knots(5mph) of wind and there would be a maximum wind limit for racing. The maximum limit is determined by the structural requirements of the downforce from the main foil and other factors.
Last edited by DLord; Aug 11, 2015 at 05:56 PM.
Jul 31, 2015, 07:52 PM
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Fire Arrow Foiling System Testing and Development


This is a year old video I haven't posted here yet. Shows how well the Fire Arrow does in really light air:
MPX test no wind 7 10 14 010 (2 min 58 sec)
Last edited by DLord; Aug 11, 2015 at 05:56 PM.


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