Fire Arrow Foiling/ 3D Sailing Trimaran Test Model - Page 14 - RC Groups
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Nov 10, 2017, 06:31 PM
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DLord's Avatar

Gitana / Fire Arrow


Quote:
Originally Posted by davidjensen
The foil cross sections must be quite different.
========================
They're somewhat different alright(FA foils thinner) but the shape of the foil viewed from forward or aft is remarkably similar.Both are designed to work like the TNZ foils in 2012/13 that had automatic altitude control. Fire Arrow was the first trimaran of any size to use the "uptip" type of ama foil. The droop tip on Fire Arrows foils was to provide more vertical lift while retaining the functionality of the TNZ type of foil.
David, what did you think of WOLF?




Look closely at the "droop tip" on both Gitanas UptiP ama foils



Last edited by DLord; Nov 11, 2017 at 07:45 AM.
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Nov 11, 2017, 12:44 PM
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As anyone who has read this thread will know one of the great advantages of the Fire Arrow Foil System and the nearly identical systems on Maserati, Gitana 17 and Banque Populaire is that the mainfoil can develop downforce-a point I've been making about the Fire Arrow for years.
Read Dolfimans comments below-he's obviously been thinking a lot about a mainfoil that can develop downforce--very cool!!


Dolfiman on  DOWNFORCE--from boatdesign.net:     


Is it not in this case that a foil on central daggerboard, when adjusted to provide a small downforce, which can add passive safety when the singlehander is sleeping ? In case of gust of wind with a move to more heel, the inflow incidence on this foil increase instantly and can provide an extra RM which adds to the one due to the weight. And moreover in steady state condition, this foil RM component is in squared speed boat, can increase in parallel with heeling moment in squared apparent wind speed. I am right ?"

Yes, you are right! dl


     
Last edited by DLord; Apr 30, 2018 at 10:12 AM.
Nov 11, 2017, 01:39 PM
Will fly for food
davidjensen's Avatar
I would love to see this in action at the RC scale.
Nov 11, 2017, 03:09 PM
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DLord's Avatar

Fire Arrow


On the Fire Arrow it works automatically and in early testing when she was overpowered the foil downforce prevented capsize.
The F3 used downforce from the windward foil to stay upright. It's a well proven concept fullsize and at RC scale.........




Last edited by DLord; Nov 11, 2017 at 03:15 PM.
Nov 11, 2017, 06:54 PM
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davidjensen's Avatar
Still would love to see it.
Nov 12, 2017, 06:29 PM
Thomas Armstrong
Still would love o see it - recent pictures, or better: recent video.
Can you give the boat to someone that can sail it?
Nov 13, 2017, 06:28 PM
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DLord's Avatar

Gitana trouble


From the Gitana site after she lost the Transat to Sodebo:

"On this her first trial run in race configuration and up against particularly stiff competition, the Transat Jacques Vabre has certainly lived up to expectations. The high standard of play pushed Sébastien Josse and Thomas Rouxel to their limits and has given them a better understanding of the fabulous machine that is the Maxi Edmond de Rothschild. Some technical incidents on the second day of racing, did however prevent the duo from expressing the true potential of Gitana 17 by forcing them to do battle without all their weapons. Indeed, in addition to the AIS black-out from the start, which could have had disastrous consequences in terms of the sailors' safety, the duo had to deal with repeated engine failure; damage which cost the skipper of Edmond de Rothschild many long hours in the bilges, whilst his co-skipper busied himself with maintaining the rhythm at over 30 knots. Last but not least, it's an injured bird', deprived of her wings', which has just pulled alongside in the Marina in Salvador de Bahia. Indeed, on Tuesday, after the front rolled through, the sailor from Nice informed his shore crew of serious damage to the boat's port foil. Unusable, the precious appendage was raised to avoid any further damage. Two days later, it was the turn of the starboard foil to show the same signs of damage as its twin. To put it plainly, our duo was deprived of her major assets for ¾ of the race, which explains the speed deficit everyone observed."
Nov 13, 2017, 06:32 PM
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DLord's Avatar

Fire Arrow Foil System / WOLF


Quote:
Originally Posted by tarmstro
Still would love o see it - recent pictures, or better: recent video.
Can you give the boat to someone that can sail it?
==============
She may be sailed for the last time next year. The priority is to get a fullsize version built.
Nov 19, 2017, 07:15 PM
Registered User
@DLord,
excellent project

I try to build rc moth.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moth_%28dinghy%29

some images from Bing

https://www.ecplaza.net/offers/aqua-...-water_4001055

since I plan to build ultralight moth, my project is based on
Aqua skipper,Water Bird,Water Vehicle,Aquaskipper,Waterbird,Pumpabike,Water Scooter,Sea Scooter (different name for the same)

https://www.bing.com/images/search?q...pper&FORM=IGRE
Dec 08, 2017, 09:05 PM
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DLord's Avatar

Banque Populaire / Fire Arrow


In a continued explosion of revolutionary new foiling technology Banque Populaire has joined the party-utilizing the same foil system Maserati and Gitana 17 have used which is basically identical to the Fire Arrow Foil System. Here is Banque Pops first full flying video:

PREMIERS VOLS du MAXI BANQUE POPULAIRE IX - IMAGES DRONE - VOILE BANQUE POPULAIRE (2 min 27 sec)
Dec 11, 2017, 12:37 PM
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DLord's Avatar

Ian Farrier


A sad day today and I wanted to make a note of it in both these threads. Ian Farrier was an inspiration to me and he's gone now-very, very sad..
More here, post 625: https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...Project/page42
Jan 10, 2018, 06:56 PM
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DLord's Avatar

Fire Arrow S


I'm nearly done with the D2 and while I want to spend as much time as possible sailing it, the D4Z and the original Fire Arrow this year-I may be into another project.
I'm considering using some of the tooling left over from the F3 to make a speed version of the Fire Arrow. The current boat is an exact scale model of a 19.5' sport trimaran carrying the equivalent weight of three 180lb people and 80 lbs of gear. Using the F3 tooling for the new version would save lots of time and weight though there would be some minor mods required of the tooling.
IF I do it the question is what length to make it-I have the F3 main hull mold (56" LOA)and the F3 ama mold so I'm leaning toward using them. But I'm also interested in the Multi One class since at one meter LOA , the class rule allows a beam of 4' which is a requirement for the Fire Arrow foil configuration. Problem with the one meter length is that I'd have to make new tooling or heavily modify the existing tooling to build the main hull light enough- and I'm not sure I want to go through that.
This Fire Arrow version would use UptiP ama foils like the original except that they wouldn't use wash-in to help the boat with light air takeoff. The new foils would be designed for speed but I would still want to achieve takeoff in a 5 mph wind so, probably, the only other way to do that with UptiP foils is to use a waterproof servo on each ama foil (both operated from a single channel) and shift the angle of incidence between 2.5-3 degrees(high speed, low drag) to 6- 8 degrees(light air takeoff)-in essence doing the same thing "manually" that the wand does for the main foil. A wand would be way difficult to implement on an UptiP foil so that is out. Using the servos would still allow the ama foils to have automatic altitude control which an UptiP foil is known for.
----------------
Just thinking about it at this point....
Last edited by DLord; Jan 11, 2018 at 03:05 PM.
Jan 12, 2018, 03:43 PM
Will fly for food
davidjensen's Avatar
How long will it take to do this?
Jan 12, 2018, 04:37 PM
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DLord's Avatar

Fire Arrow S


Just thinking about it at this point. If I do it it will take until it gets done....... Your IOM is coming together quickly and looking good!
Feb 04, 2018, 07:18 PM
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DLord's Avatar

Fire Arrow S / SuperFoiler


Quote:
Originally Posted by DLord
I'm nearly done with the D2 and while I want to spend as much time as possible sailing it, the D4Z and the original Fire Arrow this year-I may be into another project.
I'm considering using some of the tooling left over from the F3 to make a speed version of the Fire Arrow. The current boat is an exact scale model of a 19.5' sport trimaran carrying the equivalent weight of three 180lb people and 80 lbs of gear. Using the F3 tooling for the new version would save lots of time and weight though there would be some minor mods required of the tooling.
IF I do it the question is what length to make it-I have the F3 main hull mold (56" LOA)and the F3 ama mold so I'm leaning toward using them. But I'm also interested in the Multi One class since at one meter LOA , the class rule allows a beam of 4' which is a requirement for the Fire Arrow foil configuration. Problem with the one meter length is that I'd have to make new tooling or heavily modify the existing tooling to build the main hull light enough- and I'm not sure I want to go through that.
This Fire Arrow version would use UptiP ama foils like the original except that they wouldn't use wash-in to help the boat with light air takeoff. The new foils would be designed for speed but I would still want to achieve takeoff in a 5 mph wind so, probably, the only other way to do that with UptiP foils is to use a waterproof servo on each ama foil (both operated from a single channel) and shift the angle of incidence between 2.5-3 degrees(high speed, low drag) to 6- 8 degrees(light air takeoff)-in essence doing the same thing "manually" that the wand does for the main foil. A wand would be way difficult to implement on an UptiP foil so that is out. Using the servos would still allow the ama foils to have automatic altitude control which an UptiP foil is known for.
----------------
Just thinking about it at this point....
=======================
Found out that the new SuperFoiler that uses UptiP foils is controlling the angle of incidence of their foils to facilitate low speed takeoff and doing it electronically . In fact they change the rake of both the main foils and rudder foils electronically!
The more I've thought about the Fire Arrow S and using a servo to control the AOI of the ama UptiP foils , the more it has occurred to me that I could try an experiment on the original Fire Arrow by using a servo to move the mainfoil flap to eliminate the dual wands. The problem with that is the wand automatically senses when the mainfoil reaches zero lift due to wind pressure and automatically creates downforce when needed-and moving the flap manually wouldn't work as effectively. The skipper probably wouldn't be able to tell what was happening. This problem would only exist with electronic control of the mainfoil flap--no problem with moving the whole ama foil which would never develop downforce.



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