Thread Tools
Mar 27, 2004, 11:38 PM
Thread OP

Which Hotliner Should I Get? Looking for an F5D/F Hybrid. Life Beyond the Projeti.


Recommendations please!

I am thoroughly enjoying my brushless Projeti. I am hooked on speed and G. However, I am already looking beyond. I see that my next plane should be a CROSS between an F5D and an F5F.

Do you know of a plane that accomodates the following?

Core Requirements (MANDATORY):

- Electric (Obviously)
- > 100 mph level flight @ full throttle
- > 130 mph in a dive
- > 200 deg/sec role rate at cruise speed (must role faster than the EF-111 that I flew)
- Very High G Plane
- Easy to Transport (< 55 inch wingspan or wing can be
disassembled)
- Easy to launch (by hand by pilot with computer TX)
- Easy to land (stalls < 30 mph w/ or w/o high lift devices)
- Can Do LIMITED Soaring
- Aerobatic (Outside Loops, Aileron Rolls etc NO 3D Expected,
MAYBE knife edge)
- Very Durable (> 150 sorties)
- Very Aesthetically pleasing

Additional Requirements (NOT MANDATORY):

- Can use a JR R770 receiver
- 8-10 Cell of FAUPs
- Mega 16/15 OR Mega 22 series geared or direct
- > 5 minutes @ full throttle
- Can Convert to flaps and ailerons

I realize some of these qualities listed compete with each other. e.g. LIMITED Soaring and roll rate > 200 deg/sec. Nevertheless, if you own a plane or have seen one that possess the aforementioned requirements please let me know.

Cheers,

Chuck
Last edited by Talon Driver; Mar 29, 2004 at 12:13 AM.
Sign up now
to remove ads between posts
Mar 29, 2004, 01:38 AM
knee ligaments are over rated
dingo's Avatar
An FVK Bandit fits a lot of the above . Mega 22 series fits it well , wing span is what you want , Don`t know about 5 minutes at full throttle though . You run this type of plane in short bursts . Try a Bandit search in electric sail planes . Some people love it & some loathe it .
Mar 29, 2004, 08:08 AM
BANNED!!!
soholingo's Avatar
I reread these requirements and I don't know that such an animal exists. Do this...

Try an fvk bandit with a Plettenberg 7 cell setup, 7 gp3300 cells and a 15x15 prop. From there you will know which qualities are really important and which aren't.

The airframe could be anything a banana, ocelot, surprise 9, etc... But for the performance you are looking for you need the best/lightest setup.

Good luck with it...
Last edited by soholingo; Mar 29, 2004 at 08:10 AM.
Mar 29, 2004, 09:47 AM
Registered User
96S14's Avatar

Re: Which Hotliner Should I Get? Looking for an F5D/F Hybrid. Life Beyond the Projeti.


Quote:
Originally posted by Talon Driver
- Electric (Obviously)
- > 100 mph level flight @ full throttle
- > 130 mph in a dive
- > 200 deg/sec role rate at cruise speed (must role faster than the EF-111 that I flew)
This should be moderately doable with virtually any good hotliner. The molded planes will do this a little easier. Right now, I'm thinking an F5F plane. As for having a level speed requirement with throttle, that's not the goal with hotliners. Use the motor to climb only. My Ariane actually slows down when I turn the motor on coming out of a dive (even with 16" of pitch).

Quote:
- Very High G Plane
Still thinking molded....unless you can find a good strong veneered wing plane (and they do exist...the Bandit is one of them)

Quote:
- Easy to Transport (< 55 inch wingspan or wing can be
Hmmm...You may have to let this one slide a bit. A 55" plane works, but I prefer something a little bigger. They are easier to see, and tend to be more stable. I think you ideally want to be in the 65-70" span range...like many F5B planes. Otherwise you're stuck with something smaller, or a two piece wing (tough to find one that is strong/lightweight)

Quote:
- Easy to launch (by hand by pilot with computer TX)
This is where an F5F plane would come in handy, or a very powerful, but lightly loaded F5B airframe. My Ariane V6 is easy to launch, and though I have never done it myself, I'm sure it can be done. If you stick to a slightly lower pitch prop, the launch becomes a non issue (though my Ariane rips out of the launcher's hand even with a 16 x 16 narrow RFM prop)

Quote:
- Easy to land (stalls < 30 mph w/ or w/o high lift devices)
This depends bigtime on your field. I would say that it's easy to land an F5B airframe even though it lands quickly...so long as you have the room to put it down. 30 mph is still a pretty good clip though, so most planes will land below this speed.

Quote:
- Can Do LIMITED Soaring
Even a fully loaded F5B plane will "technically" thermal. I think you need to qualify this a bit more.

Quote:
Aerobatic (Outside Loops, Aileron Rolls etc NO 3D Expected,
That's pretty easy too. Knife edge is a different story as these planes have next to no lateral fuselage area.

Quote:
- Very Durable (> 150 sorties)
This depends on what you call durable. My Ariane is molded and feels pretty delicate when I handle it. That being said, I have landed it fairly hard, and on differing surfaces and it still looks good as new. If you mean the plane is durable enough to stand up to a "controlled crash" landing, buy a Bandit.

Quote:
- > 5 minutes @ full throttle
OK, this is where things are getting a little out of sync. If you want to go straight up at 100 mph, you're not going to be able to do that for 5 minutes. You'll need a high amp system, with the throttle on a switch. Go with 3-5 second blasts to altitude and head back down for a screaming dive.

So, the conclusion is, if you have a big field, and are a competent pilot, spend the dough and get a 10-or-so cell high current system and a molded airframe. Something like a Hacker B50 6S, and the 105-3P controller would make a good drive system. If you want to use the Mega motors you talk about, you'll be far below your climb performance target.

If you think you need a more durable and smaller plane, about the only thing out there that I'm aware of is the Bandit. I have not much experience with the foam wing planes though, so someone else will give you better guidance here.

The last plane the might work for you is the Mini-NYX. It has a 58" span, a fast airfoil, and works with the lighter setups that you mention (can use/should use the FAUP cells you are looking to use) It's also molded. Check it out at: http://www.icare-rc.com/mini-nyx-e.htm

Hope that helps a bit.

Ryan
Last edited by 96S14; Mar 29, 2004 at 09:50 AM.
Mar 29, 2004, 10:51 AM
Registered User
plinse's Avatar
Well do you want to have a hotliner or a plane to fly with the motor switched on most of the time?

How do you like the Turn Left?

https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...hreadid=201323

You could also run the small hotliners like the Turn Left using a direct drive and a pylon prop if you don't want to fly hotliner-like.

A Banana for example would have the advantage that you could use quadroflap for landings if you feel more comfortable that way, ...

A Mega 16/... would definately fit into a Banana. I don't know about the Mega 22/... as they are quite thick and you also need good batteries for higher performance. Either you spend a lot of money on Lipos that are capable of the current or you accept less runtime at high speed.

Eike

My Homepage
Mar 29, 2004, 10:58 AM
Registered User
96S14's Avatar
Looking at your list again, I see that if you remove the requirement of limited soaring, a VIP would fit perfectly. You could use your Mega motor and the FAUP cells. It's fast, very easy to transport, will withstand high G's, looks good, easy to launch/land, aerobatic, and very durable.

It will also fly for several minutes at full power.

Ryan
Mar 29, 2004, 10:08 PM
"HE CRASHES"
GoodTill's Avatar
You are either going to have change some expectations or change your horse power.
I would go with an Avionik F5D plane and a 16/15/3 with 8 cells.

For hotliner, you are going to have to bump the horsepower up a notch or 2.

Oh yea , if you find such a plane with all those specs, sell it for a buck three eighty.
Mar 29, 2004, 11:20 PM
Thread OP

Avionik with 50 Inch Wingspan


First Many Many thanks to all that have educated me further. I owe you all.

96S14 you the man. I greatly appreciate you taking each of my requirements and breaking them out. You are right I do need to amplify the requirement to accomplished limited soaring.

Yes, my itemized requirements are challenging. There are several airframes that you recommended that I need to research more.

However, looking at all of the F5X series I see that the F5D gives me speed and agility (role rate with high G). The problem is the F5D will not soar a little and it lands like a rock (from what I gather). The pure F5B is to heavy to do straight and level >100 mph with an eight cell setup. Also the F5B and F5F are wanting with the role rate. Keep in mind my MINIMUM role rate is 33 rpm and I can't see an F5B nor F5F meeting this criteria.

Problem: Manufactures of the REALLY HIGH PERFORMANCE airframes seem to cater to the established FAI categories only. This is why my requirements are a little difficult link to an airframe.

Exception: (again I need to further research all of the airframes you all recommended). It seems Germany has an F5D-Limited category. The following airframe, the "Liftoff xxs" has a 48 inch wingspan and this should provide the desired role rate (if it had full length ailerons, it does not) and limited soaring. YES, this is like the Turn Left. I just don't like those decaled wings. sorry.

Below is a drawing. Actuall plane doesn't look quite as nice as the drawing.

What would be perfect would be an Avionik with 50 inch Wingspan.

Does anyone know of a manufacturer that makes an F5D fuselage with a 50 inch wing with full length aileron?

Cheers,

Chuck
Last edited by Talon Driver; Mar 29, 2004 at 11:33 PM.
Mar 29, 2004, 11:47 PM
BANNED!!!
soholingo's Avatar
I really think you should go with the 7 cell plettenburg fvk bandit. Use a 15x15 prop to get pylon like acceleration, and double your throws for the roll rate you want. The other option is to buy TWO planes, which most of us do. I would get a vip and then save up for a hotliner.

That motor requirement is the killer...
Mar 30, 2004, 12:04 AM
Registered User
davidfee's Avatar

Re: Avionik with 50 Inch Wingspan


Quote:
Originally posted by Talon Driver
Problem: Manufactures of the REALLY HIGH PERFORMANCE airframes seem to cater to the established FAI categories only.
That is because the people competing in FAI categories are typically the ones who need (and are willing to pay for) the high-performance airframes.

Quote:
It seems Germany has an F5D-Limited category. The following airframe, the "Liftoff xxs" has a 48 inch wingspan and this should provide the desired role rate (if it had full length ailerons, it does not) and limited soaring. YES, this is like the Turn Left. I just don't like those decaled wings. sorry.
Below is a drawing.

Actuall plane doesn't look quite as nice as the drawing.
The actual plane looks exactly like the drawing. You don't need to put the stickers on... they are provided for decoration only.

Quote:
What would be perfect would be an Avionik with 50 inch Wingspan.
It's called an Avionik 7-cell F5B. It doesn't have full-span ailerons because they are less efficient than tip-mounted ailerons. http://www.icare-rc.com/avionik-b1-7.htm

Good luck on your search,
-David
Mar 30, 2004, 07:20 AM
Registered User
plinse's Avatar
Well there are versions of the Banana with ailerons on the whole wingspan. I don't know whether there is a quadroflap-version or whether they are all the same and you have to cut the aileron into 2 pieces if you want to fly quadroflap. That plane really lookes nice, is quite strong, has a very similar size to the 7 cell F5B Avionik (145cm wingspan) but is much less expensive and you can get the ailerons on the whole wingspan the way you want.

I had the opportunity to look at such a plane (gliderversion - but it has a diffrent fuselage only) the way it is delivered and I really liked it. A good airframe for the money.

By the way the roll rate just depends on the control throws. A F5B is capable of the roll rate you recommend but in competition you have to fly precisely and you won't be able to do so with brutal control throws. But as you plan to run on 8 cells the size of the F5B 7 cell Avionik or the Banana are a better choice for you.

I had quite a high roll rate on my Adrenalin. On the Stinger I reduced the roll rates in the beginning as the smaller plane is much harder to see anyway and on my Tokoloschi I have 2 settings. A precise one and one having high roll rates but that one is not ok for going fast close to the ground. Ok on a 100mph setup it would be ok .

I was at a meeting last weekend and flew the Tokoloschi in a quite normal way. Some people told me that they could follow the plane as long as I was flying quite constant 8s (I always turn away from the people) but as soon as you do something diffrent unexpectedly people quickly loose sight as they don't know what you are doing next and where to look .

As soon as a plane is ghoing fast it is capable of high G's as well. The lift a wing can produce rises with second power of speed. The wing just has to be strong enough.

There are also ARC-Versions of LiftOff XXS and Turn Left so you don't have to buy the wing with the given decals if you don't like them.

Eike

My Homepage
Mar 30, 2004, 08:21 AM
Registered User
down_shift's Avatar

Re: Re: Which Hotliner Should I Get? Looking for an F5D/F Hybrid. Life Beyond the Projeti.


Quote:
Originally posted by 96S14
The last plane the might work for you is the Mini-NYX. It has a 58" span, a fast airfoil, and works with the lighter setups that you mention (can use/should use the FAUP cells you are looking to use) It's also molded. Check it out at: http://www.icare-rc.com/mini-nyx-e.htm
Ryan
I know 8-GP3300 cells will fit into the Mini-NYX, but I do not believe 10-FAUP cells will. Another plane of this size that is worth looking at is the Flash 60 E from NES. 10 FAUP cells will fit and you can remove them via the canopy. Although the 60-inch wing is a few inches larger than what you are looking for, the 1.5M size is small enough that you do not have to take the wing off to fit it into the car. I just leave mine on.

And for the Jays of this world, you can order this plane with flaps!
Mar 30, 2004, 09:43 AM
Registered User
96S14's Avatar

Re: Avionik with 50 Inch Wingspan


Quote:
Originally posted by Talon Driver
Keep in mind my MINIMUM role rate is 33 rpm and I can't see an F5B nor F5F meeting this criteria.
Chuck,

I'm pretty sure my Ariane will do a roll in under 2 seconds. It's not the most aerobatic plane in the world, but I also have my roll rates set pretty low. If you dialed up the throw, I'm certain it could roll quickly enough to meet your requirements. I have seen the Avionik B-2001 flown quite aerobatically and it could roll quite quickly. Maybe you should take a good hard look at the 7 cell Avionik suggested above. It's small enough, very fast, and would be moderately aerobatic (it would likely satisfy your 33 RPM roll requirement).

Get a good 7 cell drive setup and you'll be off to the races, with blisteringly fast climbs and purely insane dive speeds.

Ryan
Mar 30, 2004, 11:06 AM
Team PowerBox Systems
SPasierb's Avatar

TurnLeft


Anybody have a lead on a US supplier of the TurnLeft? Or, someone who ships to US at reasonable rates. I was interested in this bird. Thanks!
Mar 30, 2004, 10:28 PM
Thread OP

Decision Matrix Time


Wow! Thanks for the recommendations.

I am going to do some additional research into these recommended airframes. It is strongly looking at this time that I need to really look at the 7 cell line of ships.

So that you know it will take me a little time to do this "Decision Matrix" because today I had an unforseen crash of my brushless Projeti. No I didn't plow it into the ground at Mach 2. Instead a lot of noisy gassers were interrupting my electric sortie. I was late to notice I was lossing power (timer hadn't expired). As a result I decided to put her down about 100 yards from me rather than risk making a turn back toward me. (A friend of mine lost a fast gasser just minutes earlier while trying to turn around after his motor died and he tip stalled...pieces). My Projeti was about 4 feet above the ground 100 yards away. Then as I was starting to really slow her down I experienced an uncommanded full nose down. Others watching it wondered what happened as I did since I certainly didn't do this myself. I have some thoughts, but see them at this other thread:
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...hlight=projeti
I'll fix'er up and giver the airbrush job that I have been meaning to do. So it will be a while before I can do this "Decision Matrix", but I will keep my finger on the pulse of this thread.

Before I close, I have a JR 8103 TX. I know I can do V-tailed sailplanes. However, in all honesty do you lose any controlability going to a V-tail vs a conventional tail or T-tail. It seems so simple to keep certain control surfaces in pure axis. I know that sailplanes with their mongo aspect ratio encounter some adverse yaw despite aileron differential therefore a conventional rudder helps.

Question: Which is better a V-tail or conventional tailed birds when it comes to precise control?

You know I have been eyeing the Banana. Only problem I have is the thing is too yellow! (I know that is why they call it the Banana). Does anyone know if you can get the banana peeled?

Joke aside can you honestly get the banana in perhaps white?

Confession I did not originallly put down the criteria for flaps but I totally agree with:

Quote:
Originally posted by down_shift
And for the Jays of this world, you can order this plane with flaps!
I mean when McDonald Douglas first built the F-15 it did not have any flaps, from what I have been told. Big tenis court sized wing you just didn't need them. The US Air Force said wait we need flaps. So even though it cost more to design and maintain it got flaps even though it slowed the jet down less than 10 knots from what I have been told.

Perfect world with my JR 8103 TX I should be able to mix the two inboard flaps with the two ailerons making them function like airlerons therefore larger aileron volume. Then take the two inboard flaps out of mix and make them selectable as flaps/spoilers or crow to stop on a dime.

So, consider me a "Jay of the world"

Cheers,

Chuck
Last edited by Talon Driver; Mar 31, 2004 at 12:45 AM.


Quick Reply
Message:

Thread Tools