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Jan 10, 2015, 03:20 AM
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davereap's Avatar
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thanks for the endorsement ... I hoped you would enjoy it...
mine are still going strong....

good sizes 16" + or - for indoors... 24" out side...

Note ....overpowering them is good fun... I might make another at 17" and use the hyperion z1705-14 motor on it... that's a great but expensive motor...

edit the 17" turns out to be perfect for my hall... and now I am using a 2211-1700kv motor on it...
Last edited by davereap; May 26, 2015 at 11:27 AM.
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Jan 16, 2015, 05:32 PM
Scratch Builder
HillBilly30's Avatar

20" pp1 dtfb


Hey davereap,

I saw your PP1 here and after watching the video, I had to build one. I love how it does axial rolls and flies so well inverted. Mine is made from Dollar Tree Foam Board and weighs 12oz. Here are the specs:

Motor: Turnigy D2830/11 1000kv
Prop: 9x6 SF
ESC: 30 AMP Super Simple
Servos: HXT 50 5gram
Battery: 1300 3 cell

Here is a video of it flying we have been having a lot of fun with it. The video looks best if you watch it on 720p on YouTube you just go to the gear icon and select the 720p the drop down. Enjoy!

PP1 and TuffWing 15JAN15 (5 min 16 sec)


The plane turned out to be way more fun than I even expected. Just want to say thanks for posting such a great plans.

HillBilly30
Jan 17, 2015, 08:02 AM
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davereap's Avatar
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nice one.. I am pleased you like it... from the video it sound like you were all having a good laugh..

did you add a spar or is the board strong enough on its own... I would think the layers for the KF would be good enough to stiffen it all up..

My EPP builds, being bendy, needed stiffening, so I went and found some pallet strapping , this added to the wing as a strapping/foam/strapping sandwich makes it plenty stiff

over powered... lol .. more fun.... cheap and easy... more fun..
It may be worth you sticking the posting to the dollar tree building thread as well... its a simple enough build for even a novice... and the model will fly slow enough for novices as well

sunshine.... lucky man.. we are cold, wet and windy
Last edited by davereap; Jan 17, 2015 at 08:25 AM.
Jan 17, 2015, 05:44 PM
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HillBilly30's Avatar
davereap,

I didn't have to use a spar with the DTFB with the KF step it is really stout.

I'll be sure to post it in the DTFB thread too.

Your right about the build and the way the plane flies with a smaller motor and the throws turned down I would hand it off to a beginner any day. It can fly at a crawl and it very easy to land.

Hope you get some sunshine soon!
Jan 18, 2015, 03:15 AM
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davereap's Avatar
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beginners.... don't use a smaller motor, just use the throttle... and have some various low rates with expo set...
reduce to low power after take off... the power should be set enough to get a slight climb and when trimmed the model will fly itself ..
Only blast some power when you feel like doing loops and rolls, they need a bit of extra speed

Its the same as with the nutballs... on low power, low rates, they are docile, with high power , high rates, they are lots of fun

I liked your nutball on crack comment....lol.. that's what you get when you put a nice powerful motor on a smaller 20" model...
I looked at your motor specs, it has slightly more power than the one Ive used on my 24" version... its no wonder it goes well..
yours is about 200W mine is 150W...

One nice thing on the model is its ability to take bigger batteries.. ie: carry more weight.. this doesn't reduce its performance by any noticeable amount, it just flies for that much longer, my 16" with a 12gm 40W motor is using a 1000 2s lipo, it still hovers and floats around easily, whilst also being fully aerobatic..

No great top speed, this big prop, high thrust ,setup is more for park flying.. close in aerobatics.. however like the nutball it can be setup for speed with the correct motor and prop combination.. I would think that if going with higher speeds some reduction on elevon sizes and deflections may be worth considering
Last edited by davereap; May 26, 2015 at 11:29 AM.
Jan 18, 2015, 02:42 PM
A Day @ a Time - Matt. 6:25-34
ruff1's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by davereap
16" setup 3mm depron build and 5mm EPP build

1811-2900 kv motor on 2s... 300-500 lipo.. now flown mostly on a 500 and a 1000 2s lipo for longer flights... this model easily handles the bigger battery
GWS 6x3 prop..
6A ESC... micro orange RX with 2gm servos for the lightest setup ..micro plugs and sockets.. which are still working fine after a years bashing about
or
any light weight RX standard pins, with 4.3gm servos standard plugs..

AUW 115 gms with a 300 lipo for a 2.7ozsqft loading
Dave,

Great-looking model, just what I need for an upcoming indoor event. What do you think of the following components for the 16-incher:I have an assortment of miniature servos I think will work.

I'm also thinking of skipping the landing gear and installing a small tab on top for underneath hand launching.

Cheers,
Kevin
Jan 18, 2015, 03:30 PM
flyin' fool
goldguy's Avatar
For that wing span, go with the smaller 2S 350 lipo.
Jan 18, 2015, 04:40 PM
A Day @ a Time - Matt. 6:25-34
ruff1's Avatar
Thanks, found a HURC Firepower 250 sport in my stash, that one looks good too. Adds 7 grams though. Might consider a 2S 500 for a battery...
Gotta think light on this one!
Need to read up on elevon mixing; I have a DX7...
Jan 19, 2015, 04:03 AM
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davereap's Avatar
Thread OP
my 16 carries a lot of weight with no problem ( it uses a 1000mA 2s lipo) and performs fine.. however a lighter loading is always slightly better for performance.. I just like the longer flight times..

weight/toughness/ damage resistance... is a trade off.. in a crowded hall collisions and follow up crashes are only a matter of time.. I prefer a KF build so it lasts me longer... EPP and depron will survive considerably longer when a KF of some sort is used..

EPP is best for indoors, it bounces well, but note it soaks up fluids, so its best kept in dry storage conditions and not used in damp areas..
this also means don't paint it... decorate with smelly marker pens, the solvent will disappear ok

If you want to go with a heavier motor and lipo you could scale it up to a 17" .. increasing the area will keep the wing loading lower...
however the bigger motor is really not adding much weight, whilst it will add a lot more thrust.. more power is always good

just set the wing mix.. elevons.. to on.. in the tx.. then the elevator servo works one elevon surface.. and the aileron servo works the other... the spektrum gear is nice and easy to setup..

an alternative to scaling up is to alter the tip fins.. and instead of having them at 90 degrees to the wing, do as goldguy did, have a dihedral angle of about 20 degrees on them.. and perhaps increase the width of them to 3" instead , then they basically will do some of the lifting, increasing the area.. you may also want to increase the elevon width 1/2" at the same time to improve the roll rate.. the dihedral type tips will reduce the roll rate..
its another option..

however here is the 17" with the normal tip lines... the yellow shows the KF top step, I always use it ... leaving it off will save weight, but reduce the models toughness..
landing gear is optional, but it often makes getting back into the air easier after an unexpected landing ..lol.. touch and goes are a lot easier as well
Last edited by davereap; Jan 24, 2015 at 06:13 AM.
Jan 23, 2015, 03:09 AM
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Thread OP
here is a 17" EPP version .. for indoor flight in my hall its ideal...

build it using the usual method.. but note I changed the top KF shape from the earliest build... mostly just for looks.. but it does help with stiffening down the wing

I decided on the 17" version so I could use the more standard small RC gear... I decided on 3x 3.7. or 4.3gm servos (HK).. a 10A esc (HK).. a small dsm2 compatible REC(robotbirds.co.uk)..and a 15gm motor..
I actually used a 17gm hyperion motor.. with an 8x4.3gws SF prop... its nicely over powered ..and two months later has become my favourite indoor model

mark and cut the parts.. main layer, top step layer cut in two for laminating, 2 wing tips, fin and rudder, 1.5 deep spline from 3 layers, nose block triangle from 4 layers..
part slit the main layer on the underside fold down set at 20 degrees and put cool melt glue in the crack..
laminate the KF top step layer halves, cool melt glue at the centre to fill cracks.

note new order on construction from here..

next the pallet strapping... top and bottom.. on the wing , strapping is easier than spars because it bends to follow the dihedral.. it lines up with the top of the KF step at the centre going straight across the wing tip to tip

Laminate spline and nose blocks.. trim the nose block to fit the dihedral, trim the spline ditto.. add pallet strapping to spline then fit spline with cool melt glue and then fit the tips with cool melt glue..

fin and rudder. the fin is reinforced with a CF rod down its leading edge that goes into the spline.. make the fin fairly square to start with.. first fit the rod through the wing into the spline... get this in with a slanting back angle for the shape of the fin, and make sure its nicely vertical ..fitted with cool melt glue..
with the rod in place the front of the fin is marked and cut to fit to the rod, the fin and rudder are then fitted to the wing and rod

wheels... an X with a bottom axel for the wheels is bound together, with the X in the shape to fit the triangular nose block CA is used to fix the bindings.. the legs are then lashed to ply plates and fixed with CA, then the unit is cool melt glued to the nose block.. pic 6

On the front of the nose block I will glue a ply plate onto which I fit the motor mount..
Last edited by davereap; May 26, 2015 at 11:35 AM.
Jan 23, 2015, 07:46 PM
A Day @ a Time - Matt. 6:25-34
ruff1's Avatar
Great, I was looking for this info, thanks!
Jan 24, 2015, 05:55 AM
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Despite having built three of these so far, I keep forgetting to fit the strapping at the earlier stage, which should be done before fitting the spline and tips
... then I have to slot through the spline to get the lower wing strap in place...

Do it earlier because its much easier to fit the strapping and keep the wing flat, when you can hold the wing on a flat surface( no spline or wing tips) and press the strapping into place.. with the end result being a nice flat wing

elevons and rudder are chamfered at the hinge line.. then uhu por on the chamfer tips makes the hinge.. use the smallest bead along the chamfer tips for the hinge..
Then when they are joined you flex the hinge to and fro whilst brushing on some talcum powder or flour.. the powder helps keep the hinge free... otherwise later on it will stick up more, all depending on how much glue you put there...
Last edited by davereap; Jan 24, 2015 at 06:14 AM.
Jan 24, 2015, 06:05 AM
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Ive stripped the gear from a 20" 3D biplane, so the motor is going to be the hyperion z17-14, with a GWS 8x4.3 SF prop ... a dsm2 compatible rec from robotbirds.. 10A esc.. and 3x sub 5gm servos..
this will fly on a smaller motor ... an 11-12gm 1811-2900 has plenty of power, and is on the 16".. using a smaller 10gm motor will make for a good trainer, but it wont have any vertical.. a 15gm motor will bump up the performance..

the hyperion is a 17 gm motor... so its over powered with good vertical.. note 2months on and the setup has proved itself ideal..
I am using the new type of gws8x4,3 props.. they are very good, use less amps than others , although a bit fragile if you keep crashing ...lol
Last edited by davereap; Apr 04, 2015 at 12:30 AM.
Jan 24, 2015, 12:01 PM
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the final weight is 146gms without a battery...5.2oz.. battery a 500 2s weighs 33.5gms... total of 180gms

6.4oz...area 1.93sqft.... 3.3ozsqft

the 16" with a 1000 2s lipo is flying at 3.6ozsqft
Last edited by davereap; Jan 24, 2015 at 12:29 PM.
Jan 24, 2015, 12:14 PM
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Thread OP
just found this video on the nutball thread.. note there are also two PP1's flying.. one crashed in the first second and one is still flying...last up..
.
Leon Jefferooo Bob and Ron in combat (1 min 21 sec)


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