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Aug 27, 2013, 01:19 AM
Registered User
franpr's Avatar
Discussion

Is it possible to MANIPULATE the a F3B comp. using a defective DISPLAY???


I have already asked this question to some of the most relevant f3b pilots in the world... I would like to start an open discussion to try to prevent future WC affected by the same "issue" we suffered in the previous ones!!!

Thanks
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Aug 27, 2013, 01:27 AM
F3B
satinet's Avatar
What issue?
Aug 27, 2013, 01:37 AM
Registered User
Avaldes's Avatar
Yes I am curious to hear about this as well. I remember reading that the scoreboard suffered a failure at some point. But I was thinking that was before the WC? Perhaps someone who attended the competition could comment?

I know this isn't what was intended in the OP, but I would LOVE to see us carry GPS transponders and have real time telemetry for the contest officials to view and record the flight tracks of the airplanes. Similar to America's Cup yacht racing and auto racing. Would be perfect backup in the event of a failure.
Last edited by Avaldes; Aug 27, 2013 at 09:15 AM.
Aug 27, 2013, 02:48 AM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by satinet
What issue?
The board said 20 seconds for your speed run but you really wanted 15 seconds :-)
Aug 27, 2013, 03:04 AM
F3B
satinet's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by tcbp285
The board said 20 seconds for your speed run but you really wanted 15 seconds :-)
I suffer the same problem when it's written down on a piece of paper
Aug 27, 2013, 08:27 AM
Registered User
franpr's Avatar

Some objective data!


Well... at the WC the Contest Director knew that it was going to fail and at the TM meeting it was said that any failure in the display will not be an argument to get a refly. They did also forbid anybody to be at B base controlling the turns.

During all the comp it was having ISSUES, like delays in the signal, frozen information, collapse of the panel forcing all the competition to STOP for some decent amount of time.

The question here is:

Are all those ISSUES relevant enough to CHANGE the final result of the CONTEST???
Aug 27, 2013, 08:28 AM
Registered User
franpr's Avatar
There were some pilots that got 20sec but they were certainly faster than that!!!
Aug 27, 2013, 12:44 PM
Registered User
Francesco's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by franpr
Well... at the WC the Contest Director knew that it was going to fail and at the TM meeting it was said that any failure in the display will not be an argument to get a refly. They did also forbid anybody to be at B base controlling the turns.

During all the comp it was having ISSUES, like delays in the signal, frozen information, collapse of the panel forcing all the competition to STOP for some decent amount of time.

The question here is:

Are all those ISSUES relevant enough to CHANGE the final result of the CONTEST???
Well, if the TMs were informed and accepted those conditions during the meeting...
Aug 27, 2013, 02:50 PM
Registered User
franpr's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Francesco
Well, if the TMs were informed and accepted those conditions during the meeting...
Well... there was another device brought by the CZ team that is fully reliable but the organizers did not want to use it!

The question is:

WHY???
Aug 27, 2013, 03:05 PM
Challenge is rewarding
djklein21's Avatar
Calm down a bit. I love the scoreboard in general. It's fault lies in it's strength. It's size and visibility create huge power demands. High enough that the extension chords were not up to the task and cause some local brown outs of the display.

To answer your original question, I think there is no issue if the scoreboard goes out all together, as long as the lights and sounds are not malfunctioning. However, I do think that if the display is reading incorrectly, than a re-flight is in order as if the flight did not happen (for the distance task only). This is because the pilots and their teammates will alter their flight based on the performance of the others. If the board is incorrectly representing the pilots performance, than it is not right. Basically, if the board goes blank, or is shutoff, that is ok, but it isn't ok to display incorrectly.

For speed, the board is just for spectators. It is easy to audit by running a stop watch.

Franpr, what is your name?

David Klein

BTW, I love the scoreboard.
Aug 27, 2013, 05:18 PM
Registered User
franpr's Avatar
I could agree on everything you have said, and always thinking on good faith from the people that are providing the display.

The problem you have reported is so easy to solve, that I can not believe that, after 10 years, it is still happening... do you?

The question I rise is fairly simple... The answer I got from the pilots I asked all the time is YES...it is perfectly possible to manipulate the competition in small bits, flight after flight, that at the end you can give some small advantage to some pilots in comparison to others...

You are talking in theory, but what does it happen to the pilots if the display stops working suddenly? in the middle of the stress of a distance flight? when you are trying to get one lap more than the others? some seconds of confusion? enough to make you lose one lap? mmm... I think it makes the work!!!

In speed? well... acoustic and visual signaling only? sure, but accurate enough? we were able to measure more than .5s delay in the signal at B base... some pilots decided to come back to the B base when they got the signal... that proves the delay was there and was affecting the performance of some pilots...

Here one simple question:

Why to fly all speed rounds in inverse ranking order?

Interesting answer and more interesting possibilities coming from there!!!

If we are flying a WC... with that even pilots, so close one to the other that just few points were the difference in the final list... where is the need to use a display that keeps failing, introducing chaos to the game and "supposedly" is not making life better for anybody???

If the duty of that panel is as simple as you described, do you think that ,after more than 10 years of development, those simple problems are impossible to solve?

In any case... the question here fairly simple:

Can those "chaotic" behavior make a bigger difference between pilots than the performance of themselves in an objective comparison?
Aug 27, 2013, 07:30 PM
Registered User
franpr........ What's your name? :-)
Aug 27, 2013, 08:23 PM
Stay high
In one of my speed flights a delayed buzzer resulted in me pulling to turn back for the base, only to receive the buzz as I was heading 90' to the course. In an attempt to quickly head back for base A, the safety line was crossed. While there is no excuse for crossing safety lines, it was a very frustrating experience nonetheless. The lesson I've taken out of this though is not to be in too much of a hurry to return to the base, as if it is a cut, it will hopefully be a dropper anyway.

As far as the scoreboard being used to manipulate the results, I don't think so. The best pilots can cope with these minor issues and still finish on top. The scoreboard is still more an asset than a hindrance.

For all flights we ran independent timers and lap counts and didn't have any problems when the scoreboard malfunctioned.

Cheers
Mike
Aug 27, 2013, 08:43 PM
Registered User
wakumann's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle Paulson
franpr........ What's your name? :-)
Assume his Name is Francisco Pantano from Argentina and lives partly in Spain.

If his claim bares some ground I'm pretty certain the serious US Pro Competion flyers would be all over it, to be so shameless 'betrayed' in Germany.
Last edited by wakumann; Sep 05, 2013 at 08:34 AM.
Aug 27, 2013, 09:15 PM
Challenge is rewarding
djklein21's Avatar
To be clear, there are no US pilots screaming foul. I for one was very grateful to Reinhard Dylla, Armin Hortiz, and the rest of the German organization and helpers that put on a first class competition for us. There is an immense amount of work that goes into such a well planned contest.

Now questions regarding scoreboard malfunctions are valid, although questions regarding an organizer purposefully causing malfunctions in order to lend an advantage to one team is quite inflammatory and disrespectful.


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