|Great Planes Cirrus SR22T .46-.72 /EP ARF (1 min 35 sec)|
|Wing Area:||493 sq in|
|Wing Loading:||35-39 oz/sq ft|
|Servos:||3 Futaba S3004 Std & 3-Futaba S3115 Small servos|
|Transmitter:||Futaba 2.4GHz 14 CH FASST|
|Receiver:||Futaba 2.4GHz 7 CH FASST|
|Radio Battery:||HydriMax Ultra 4.8 1600mAh NiMH|
|Flight Pack Battery:||FlightPower EON 6S 3350mAh Li-Po|
|Motor:||OS OMA-5025-375 Brushless|
|ESC:||FlightPower 60A Brushless ESC|
|Propeller:||APC 14 x 10E|
|Available From:||Fine At Hobby Stores Everywhere|
The new Great Planes Cirrus is one beautiful plane. In this review we will determine if she is just beautiful to look at or if she is a solid flying plane. Unlike the full size model this one does not come with a parachute to save the plane if a spin is entered from which she cannot escape. Hopefully she can handle spins better than the full scale Cirrus. This ARF model was designed to be powered by a variety of engines or motors including: a 2-stroke .46-.55 engine, a 4-stroke .70-.72 glow engine or a .55 size brushless motor. I went with the brushless option, and I had my choice on how I wanted to power her.
Included Parts That Won't Be Used In This Electric Powered Setup
Additional Parts Supplied For This Review
Additional Assembly Items Required Author Supplied
The assembly starts with the two wing halves which came already assembled. I just needed to smooth the existing covering, install servos and assemble and attach the main landing gear. I got out my covering iron and smoothed out the covering on both wing halves and the horizontal stabilizers as well. Next, the aileron servos both got a 16" servo extension wire added to them and the flap servos each got a 9" extension wire. The kit includes three short pieces of black shrink tubing and for this step I cut two of those three pieces in half giving me 4 1/2 size pieces of shrink tubing. I slipped a piece of the shrink tubing on each of the four servo wires from the four Futaba micro servos. I plugged in two 16" servo wire extensions for the ailerons and two 9" servo wire extensions for the flap servos and centered the shrink tubing over the connections. I got out my heat gun and shrunk the tubing on all four pieces of tubing so that the servo leads and extension wires were solidly connected and couldn't be pulled apart. I installed an eyelet and grommet onto the two mounts per servo. My four Futaba micro servos were ready to be installed into the wing.
The main landing gear was assembled and installed one onto each wing half. The axles for the landing gear and the nose gear as well needed to have a flat spot on the end of them to secure the wheel collar in place. I got out my Dremel tool and a grinding wheel and made the flat spots on the two main axles and the nose axle. They were now ready to be used when I got to that point of the assembly.
The aileron servos are mounted onto the servo bay covers and the instructions covers the procedure of gluing on the mounting blocks with an Expert Tip. That tip involves using a pin to put small holes in the surface of the block and the servo bay cover. These holes give the epoxy something extra to attach to for a secure connection. The instructions cover this very well. Center the servos on the bay cover, mark where the wooden mounts go and secure them as described above using epoxy. When securing I put a piece of card stock under the servos and drilled two 1/16 holes for the servo mounting screws and secured the servos with the two screws that came with the servo. I removed the card stock which left the servos just slightly away from the servo bay covers to protect against vibration. I took the string from the aileron servo bay in the wing and I tied it to the servo extension lead and pulled the aileron servo wire into the servo bay and out the inner most wing rib. I then mounted the servo bay cover with the now attached servo over the servo bay. I drilled the holes where marked in the corners of the servo bay covers with a 1/16th drill bit and secured the covers with four screws along with four flat washers from the Cirrus kit.
I repeated this process for the other aileron servo and installed the two flap servos using the strings in those wing bays to pull the flap servo wires to get those wire leads out of the wing. I put a little yellow tape on my aileron servo wire leads just behind the connectors to be sure I attached everything properly at the flying field.
I ground the required flat spot on the end of the axles as described above. I trial fitted the wheels onto the axles and found the fit too tight even with a little 3 in 1 oil on the axle. I used my hobby knife and carefully trimmed a little plastic out of the center hub openings. When the wheel spun fairly freely I went on with the assembly. I had read the instructions and knew that there was a left and a right strut so I trial fitted them onto the wing and made a small mark on the bottom of the left one with a felt pen. I put the parts for the landing gear and a pair of pliers. a blade screwdriver and an Allen wrench into a plastic bag and took them to an informal meeting to assemble them while I listened to the proceedings.
At the meeting I showed the parts to some friends and when I got them back my felt pen mark was gone. It was now a 50/50 chance I would get the assembly right. Oh well, it would be an easy fix if I didn't do it right. I fitted a wheel pant to the bottom of one of the main gear struts and held them together and slid the axle partially through the hole and just into the wheel pant. I slipped the locking nut onto the axle and then put the wheel into the wheel pant and pushed the axle into the wheel pant as far as it would go. Using needle nose pliers I held the securing nut and used my blade screwdriver on the back of the axle and tightened the nut to the inside of the wheel pant and made sure the flat edge I had grinded on previously on the axle was facing up. I started the recommended bolt into the wheel collar and then fitted the collar with bolt onto the axle by holding it with needle nose pliers. I got the collar onto the axle and temporarily tightened the bolt securing the wheel in place on the axel. I repeated the process for the other main landing gear strut. When I got home I fit one of the struts into the wing and took the pictures shown below. Murphy's Law lives and I lost my 50/50 bet with myself. I redid the gear and used LockTight on the parts this second time. Nice scale looking fixed main gear when assembled and attached properly.
After I mounted mounted the servos into the wings I connected the servos into my seven channel receiver using two Y-harnesses. I centered the aileron servos and for the flaps I had them at full throw and had them on my flap slide switches on the back left of my transmitter. The transmitter had the flap servos so that the servos were setup so the arms were lined up in the back of the servo bay covering towards the flap. I removed the small servo arm that came on the servos and took the larger four arm servo connector and cut three arms off each one and mounted the flap's servo arms facing back as had the smaller arms previously. For the aileron servos I mounted the larger arms in the centered position. I made sure they worked properly and then secured the servo arms with the set screw that came in the servo for that purpose.
I followed the instructions in mounting the aileron and flap surface control horns. Since the mounting screws don't go all the way through the control surfaces and into a plate it is especially important to harden the control horn mounting holes with thin CA. DON'T SKIP THIS STEP! I attached the clevises to the supplied control rods with the recommended 20 turns. I trial fit the clevises into the surface control horns and lined the control rods up and over the servo arms. I marked them where they needed to be bent 90 degrees. I removed them and bent them at the marks and cut off excess control rod after the bend. I had to adjust one aileron clevis a couple of turns and one flap a single turn on the clevis to set up my controls mechanically to have the control surfaces in the neutral positions. That was much better than I usually do with my control rod measurements and bends.
I had read through the instructions before starting the assembly and after finishing the assembly of the wings I next assembled the wooden motor mounting box to give time for the glue to dry while I did other assembly. The box uses different pieces of wood in different positions depending on whether using the recommended OS motor or the recommended RimFire motor. If you elect to use an entirely different motor you will need to determine for yourself how to make the motor mount box so that the motor will be properly positioned for the propeller to be where it is needed. Since I am using the OS motor I made the mount for that motor and threw away the wooden parts for the RimFire motor. I installed the motor mounting nuts into the back of the double front of the motor mount and glued the nuts carefully in place, keeping glue out of the screw areas. I assembled the motor mounting box per the directions and my results can be seen in the pictures below. I set it aside to let the epoxy harden so it would be ready for me to install when I got to the part of the assembly.
It was getting very late so the last thing I did on the first night of assembly was mount the front wheel steering mount to the fuselage. It just bolts into place with four bolts as shown in the picture below.
Per the Instruction Manual this was the first described step in assembling the Fuselage. It was my first step in the second day of assembly. While the wings had needed a minimal amount of touch up with my covering iron, the horizontal stabilizer and elevators needed a lot of touch up iron work. I took the tape off that held the parts together and put a small piece on the top of one stab and elevator part and marked it blue with a pen. For the other side I just used small pieces of plain masking tape. Now I knew which elevator went with which stab and which side was topside for all four pieces.
I mounted the control horn onto the elevator per the instructions. There was a piece of harder wood mounted under the covering for the control horn mount. The control horn was mounted the same way as the aileron control horn. I was certain to harden the holes with CA.
There was no mention of installing the rudder control horn! I looked at the pictures of the rudder in other places in the manual and the box cover to see what I could learn. I saw no mounting plate on the far side of the rudder control horn area. I lined up the control rod and positioned the control horn so the holes for the control rod lined up with the hinge line and I drilled the mounting holes into one side of the rudder only. I glued in the control horn mounting screws into the rudder. Below are pictures of the elevator and rudder control horns correctly mounted and attached to the control rods.
As covered above I had already constructed the wooden motor mount to extend the motor out from the fiberglass fuselage in proper alignment with the opening in the cowl for my OS motor. If you want to use a different brushless motor I recommend that you rethink your position and buy the OS motor. That is obviously your call but good luck on getting the propeller shaft in the exactly proper location if you are not a skilled builder. (Skilled builders can disregard the above.)
By the time I got to this stage of mounting the motor mount; I had already used a number of bolts and washers but I had no trouble finding the four bolts I would need to mount the motor mount to the fiberglass fuselage. Unfortunately, I did have trouble finding washers that would fit the bolts and fit through the holes on the front of the motor mount. I may have used the washers intended for this part of the assembly earlier (likely) or the supplied washers may not have fit the holes in the motor mount (possible but unlikely). So I recommend that anyone assembling the brushless motor version of the Cirrus: Find the bolts and washers needed for this step early and set them aside after checking the fit of the washers before assembling the motor mount. If they don't fit the existing holes you can drill or ream out the holes until they do fit and then assemble the motor mount. Since I already had an assembled motor mount I tried to hold the washers inside the motor mount with tweezers and fit the bolts in through the holes and through the washer. I was not skillful enough to do that but once so I ultimately reamed out the other three holes for the washers to fit into the motor mount. After that, mounting the motor mount was easy. I just screwed in the four bolts into the fuselage using some lock LockTight in the process.
Mounting the OS motor to the motor box was quick and easy following the instructions. Below is a picture of my mounted motor.
The instruction manual showed a very flat ESC that was simply bolted to the existing holes in the bottom of the motor mount. But my FlightPower 60Amp ESC was not that flat and had no mounting holes on it for me to use. I prepared the ESC for use by crimping on wires from a Deans connector to connect with the supplied battery pack. I used the female connectors that came with the motor and soldered them to the three motor wires on the ESC. I looked at the available openings on the motor mounting box and decided I could use two blue plastic ties and mount the ESC to the front underside of the motor box as shown in the picture below. I connected the motor wires and the ESC motor wires by plugging them together. The instructions discussed drilling a hole in the firewall to run the throttle wire connection into the fuselage. I decided to run the wires in through the round hole behind the motor. The battery connection wire with the Deans connector fit easily. However, the throttle wire had a donut shaped Ferrite magnet on it (helps prevent interference) and wouldn't fit. There was also a on/off switch for the motor that needed to be run back into the fuselage. I was stuck and called it a night and stopped there and went to bed.
The next morning refreshed by sleep I had ready solutions for both of my problems. The on/off switch was connected to the ESC with plug together connectors. I unplugged it and ran the wire with the switch out from inside the fuselage through the hole and plugged them back together. That solution had totally alluded me the previous night. For the throttle wire I unwrapped it from the Ferrite donut shaped magnet and ran the wire through the mounting box and into the fuselage and wrapped it back around the Feritte donout shape magnet.
I was happy with my solutions and moved onto the the next step. However, later when I went to install the motor cowl I found my ESC mounting solution was flawed. The landing light in the bottom of the cowl was hitting the ESC where I had mounted it and I couldn't get the cowl on over it. I cut the blue plastic ties and moved the ESC back further and secured it with one yellow/green plastic tie as shown below. This ESC mounting location was successful.
The first significant radio installation was the installing of the four servos into the wing and bending the control rods to link the servos to the control horns as described above in the wing construction section. Here I installed the rudder and elevator servos into the fuselage where directed by the instruction manual. I installed the clevises on the long control rods and ran them into the fuselage from the back. I trial connected the clevises to the rudder and elevator and marked the wires at the servo arms. I shortened the control rods slightly, bent them 90 degrees where marked and cut the control rods after the bend to their desired length. I secured the control rods with the supplied plastic keepers. I adjusted the clevises as necessary so that mechanically the control rods in the servo arms had the servo arms out at 90 degrees from the servos.
I mounted the receiver in the fuselage on a piece of foam where directed to in the instruction manual. The flight battery was secured where recommended with glued strips of hook and loop material and a hook and loop strap.
At this point I glued some short Velcro like strips that I had cut to the battery mounting area. These strips and a matching Velcro like strap will secure the flight pack battery in place.
I was using a four cell receiver battery and I would determine where it needed to be located as part of the balancing program for obtaining the proper C/G. I had charged the receiver battery and used it to center all of the servos and move the control arms to the recommended position earlier. I will locate the battery later. I did remove the red, positive wire from the extension wire used to connect the throttle to the receiver. This removed the built in BEC in the ESC from powering the receiver.
The most interesting installation for me was mounting the front landing gear wheel and bending a wire to connect the steering control to the rudder. I always find these things a little intimidating but have learned through the years to trust the instruction manual and just do it. That got me through this step much more easily than I expected. My first attempt was successful which has not always been the case with such control linkage. I just obeyed the instructions! See the pictures below.
Before installing the cowl over the brushless motor it was first necessary to drill out the second side air hole on the cowl used to allow cooling air around the motor and into the fuselage. It came with one open hole and the second molded hole is left closed for the fuel engine powered options but opened for the electric motor option. I drilled out an opening in the center and then used my Dremel drill with a small grinding bit to open up the hole.
The instructions had me cut up an index card and tape them in place so the cowl can go on and will be under/inside these paper strips. I marked my strips with a dot where the screw holes should be drilled and hit the wooden supports inside the fuselage. I went to slip the cowl on and it hit the front landing gear. I removed a slot of the bottom back center of the cowl by cutting it out. I refit the cowl and determined how much more needed to be removed. I used my Dremel drill with a fine metal sanding disc and trimmed away more of the cowl. It was while fitting on the cowl and doing this I discovered the ESC was mounted in the way and repositioned the ESC further back as described above. I finished trimming the cowl and the landing gear strut cleared the cowl with a nice fit.
I took my time to align the cowl properly. Getting the motor properly centered and having clearance for the prop adapter was my first priority and lining up with the decals on the side was second to that. I got my desired alignment and drilled through the dots on the paper to properly locate the four mounting screws. The cowl was properly mounted.
I had the original prop adapter along with the recommended optional prop adapter that the spinner will mount to in the small brown box I used to hold the parts during assembly and when it came time to mount the cowl I used the wrong prop adapter as my guide to where the end of the adapter extends. The one that came in the kit has the back plate further forward than the one I needed to use with the spinner. This mistake was not discovered until after I had mounted the cowl. DOH! I had two options when this was discovered. 1) Mount the cowl slightly further back on the fuselage so the correct prop adapter extend out from the cowl when properly seated on the propeller adapter shaft. 2) Remount the motor using longer bolts and some washers to extend the motor forward. I chose option number two. I remounted the motor using four 6-32 3/4" long bolts and five # 6 washers per bolt. The prop adapter now extended far enough out for the back plate to be clear of the cowl. Everything works fine and the motor is firmly mounted. I could have avoided this by removing the prop adapter from the collection of parts for the plane early in the process and stored it separately.
A very nice aluminum spinner was included with the plane. This is a very nice piece of hardware that is often a separate purchase component for a kit costing $20.00 or more! I was very happy that it was included in the kit. Unfortunately, for the brushless motor option it was necessary for me to expand the hole on the back spinner plate to fit the prop shaft. It fit on the threads but not all the way back to the base of the propeller shaft. I planned to use my Dremel tool with a small pointed grinding bit but I forgot the batteries for the Dremel where I was going to do this. This would have allowed me to expand the hole while keeping it nice and circular. I did have my hobby knife with a new # 11 blade so I tried it and found it worked wonderfully. I was able to remove small shreds of aluminum from the backplate and within ten minutes it fit on the correct prop adapter perfectly. I was careful doing this and kept the hole round. Next I reamed out the center of the 14 x 10 propeller and Trial fitted it on the propeller adapter. The prop washer that comes with the prop adapter does not fit flat over the propeller. That is OK because we don't use that prop washer. We use a nut and the appropriate spinner adapter that came with the O.S. motor. When that has been secured to the motor and made tight the spinner nose cone is fitted on and secured with its 4 x 45mm socket head cap screw.
I had been supplied with two William Brother pilots which I glued together and painted with one in a green shirt and one in a blue shirt. I mounted them on cardboard pads to raise their height but only 1/8 inch. I painted the eyes and painted one pilot with white air and one light brown. I then secured them into the seats in the cockpit through an opening in the cockpit floor using epoxy and a screw with each pilot. When I was sure they were secure I secured the cockpit floor in place to close the opening. With that done I finished the cockpit by gluing the antenna to the the top of the cockpit.
A few decals were supplied with an emblem for both sides of the tail and numbers for the sides of the fuselage and a few more. I secured the decals where indicated early in the build process and used my hobby knife with a sharp blade to cut the decal on the tail where the rudder connected to the vertical stabilizer so the rudder portion of the decal was no longer connected to the front part of the decal. I trimmed off the part of the circle that extended beyond the rudder. By doing this early I had a light fuselage to work with which was to my liking.
The instruction manual gives recommended throws for the control surfaces for both high and low rates. I was able to set those up with my programmable transmitter. For high rates I had the recommended throws for all of the controls and programming was only necessary for the low rates. I had a hum with my flap servos and reduced the throws slightly to 92% in both directions and the flaps worked great and the servos no longer hummed.
I found that by having the motor battery all the way forward and the receiver battery mounted behind the receiver as shown below the plane balanced perfectly for me at the recommended position 2 1/4 inches behind the wings leading edge measured near the fuselage. If I was using BEC instead of a battery for the receiver I could have balanced the plane by moving the large motor battery pack a bit as there is a large area for battery adjustment. battery
I want to make a special mention of the O.S. brushless motor. This is my second plane to be powered with an O.S. electric brushless motor. The first was my Proud Bird that first flew this past January. Both of these motors have supplied excellent power and speed and give good flight times as well with proper throttle management. In the assembly section I recommended using this motor simply to make sure the motor properly aligned for the proper propeller position. Here I am recommending it for its performance which you can see in the video below is outstanding. This plane deserves a quality motor and if you go electric I strongly recommend the O.S. motor for trouble free excellent performance.
The plane has five basic flight controls: throttle, ailerons, elevator, rudder and flaps. The rudder servo controls both the rudder and steering for the front wheel. I aligned these by eyeing them but I didn't really get them properly aligned until I did some taxiing on the runway and with the front wheel tracking straight I visually aligned the rudder so that it was straight. As a scale plane most of my flying will be in a scale like manner. She turns just using ailerons or more slowly just using the rudder. She turns in a scale like fashion using a combination of aileron and rudder. While I could make an aileron/rudder mix with my Futaba 14 channel transmitter, I prefer to use both sticks to fly the Cirrus starting most of my turns with a little aileron and adding a little rudder to the turn to avoid yaw.
At our field I don't need to use flaps as we have a very long runway. However, the flaps do work very well and allow for a short run takeoff if you have a small field and allow her to quickly land and stop rolling if you have limited landing space. As always I first experimented with the flaps with altitude and recovery distance in case it dramatically affected the pitch or speed. The plane remained easy to control while deploying and with the flaps deployed.
This is a plane where throttle management really adds to the enjoyment of flying her. her top speed is impressive both visually and by sound. I find she flies great at a bit above half throttle but looks more scale flying a bit faster than that and is very impressive at full throttle in Great Planes promotional video above and my video below. She is easy and to fly.
I have my navigation and landing light plugged into channel five, my landing gear channel and while they are always on they only become bright when I flick the switch for them to be bright. This little light trick surprised people. I consider this a twilight flyer with these lights not a night flyer.
In the demonstration video she was flown into a strong and slightly cross wind and handled it without any problem. Taking off into the wind I apply throttle as I choose and I can make my takeoffs as scale looking as I wish. Once takeoff has been achieved I increase throttle as I enter my climb to be certain to avoid any possibility of stalling. Takoffs are a joy in calm conditions or into the wind. Main gear is wide enough to make a slight cross wind no reason for concern. I have not tried to takeoff in a heavy cross wind.
Landings must be made with power on to maintain a reasonable speed and descent rate. Landings should be made by touching down on the main gear first but with only a slight flair so that the front wheel is quickly on the ground as well. Her landings so far have been very scale like and on the runway very smooth. She seems to stick on touchdown and there have been no bouncy landings.
I have not done a lot of aerobatics although she does do a very nice aileron roll, a pretty good barrel roll and an excellent loop. As a scale general aviation plane I think she looks best flying in a scale like manner. However, since she does simple aerobatics so smoothly it is admittedly harder to fly in a scale like manner than usual with this plane. She encourages me to perform aerobatics by doing the maneuvers so well. So far resistance has been less than perfect but most of the flight is done scale like.
NO! This is too nice of a plan for a beginner to fly. It has a lower wing which is not considered to be especially beginner friendly. With so many good trainer planes available today much better to save this plane for when a person knows how to fly and get it beautiful for a very long time.
|Great Plane's Cirrus with Brushless OS Motor Power (3 min 2 sec)|
If you are interested in a general aviation plane then I strongly recommend you consider Great Planes Cirrus! This plane is a winner. The instructions are very good and assembly is easy and straight forward. Be sure to use the prop adapter that you will actually be using when fitting the cowl in place and avoid my stupid mistake covered above. Learn from my mistakes. I didn't share them because i am proud of them , but rather in hopes of helping others avoid them. Set aside four washers that fit the front mounting holes for the motor mount assembly and everything else should be simply following the instructions. After completing the easy to follow assembly the real fun begins at the flying field. bolting the wings on and connecting the three wires per wing is quick and easy and flying her is a joy. the wings need an occasional touch up with my covering iron but otherwise there is no real maintenance aside from charging the battery packs. The fiberglass body, decals and paint job look terrific and she is a real center of attention both on the ground and in the air.
Hi, Nice review.
But, IMO the motor you've used is too large and under-propped.
I have the 5025-375 motor and the slightly shorter 5020-490. Both are fine motors.
OS has really undersold these motors with their conservative I.C engine equivalent recommendations.
Also note that OS's performance data is very accurate but my guess is that it was recorded using a fixed voltage power supply which does not drop voltage under load. In actual use with a LiPo battery you will see a voltage drop roughly equivalent to 1 cell on 6S.
My own data (Voltage, Current, Watts, RPM) using 6S packs under load matches the data for 5S from OS and likewise my data using 7S packs under load matches the data for 6S from OS.
The 375kv motor is really for larger props on 6S like a 16x10 and works great on 7S setups with smaller props.
I run the 5020-490kv on an Escapade 61 with 6S 5000mAh lipos and a 15x8. It cruises around comfortably for about 9 minutes but really hauls if i open the throttle.
I haven't tested a 14x10 on the 5025-375 but based on the props i have used it must be sipping electrons at typical throttle settings.
You might also find the slightly shorter 490 motor will solve your "mistake" if you use the provided prop adapter.
Last edited by CustomPC; Sep 16, 2013 at 10:13 PM.
The provided prop adapter would not work with the spinner that came with the kit so that was not an alternative. Besides I would have needed a slightly longer motor to correct for my mistake. Our reviews are to be done with the motor and equipment supplied for review when possible. I may be wasting a few electrons but the plane is performing great and I am very happy with the way it handles and performs. If I were racing I would be more concerned with maximizing performance but I am happy with how she is performing. I do appreciate your input and thank you for sharing your thoughts. I will hold up a larger prop and see if there is clearance for takeoff and if so might give that a try in the future. Thanks Again, I found this to be a very nice plane to fly. Mike Heer
Enjoyed reading your review. I saw a Cirrus SR22T .46 at my club`s field today. What a beauty. Has a large 4 stroke mounted on the firewall. Impressive maiden.
Having started a GP Rocket Build Log over in Sport Electric, I immediately locked onto your comments about the rudder control horn. Similar problem in the Rocket User Manual. Requires some experience to dance around the problem. No big deal but very odd.
The finished Rocket is such a great flier that it doen`t really matter. From the sounds of things, the Cirrus will be equally impressive.
HELP with Cirrus 22
Need help please. The Cirrus nose gear is angled forward of course. The nose gear steerring arm therefore changes elevation when the nose gear is turned. Turning right, the arm goes forward and up, go left, it goes back and down. How do I accomodate the change in elevation of the steering arm considering that the wire linkage comes out of the firewall through the common small tube and not allowing up and down movement???? Thanks anyone.
Can this plane take a DLE 20???
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