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Jun 01, 2013, 02:50 PM
Flying = Falling (Slowly)
dharban's Avatar
Discussion

ALES, F5J and F5J Lite


There has been a lot written about the "complexities" of F5J vs ALES -- most of it not really accurate. Notwithstanding that, it IS possible to fly a "Lite" version of F5J pretty much the same way we fly ALES with the exception of measuring the Launch Altitude.

The F5J launch altitude is defined as the highest point reached between when the plane is released from the launcher's hand and 10 seconds AFTER the motor is shut off. In F5J the pilot is allowed to launch as high as he pleases understanding that he is penalized by 1/2 second per meter of launch altitude up to 200 meters plus 3 seconds per meter over 200 meters. The altitude is easily measured by a number of devices which are useful both for ALES and F5J.

F5J has rules pertaining to launch windows and such that, as far as I can see, are the only complicating factors in running a contest. The scoring is somewhat different, but the scoring differences are essentially transparent to scorers using available scoring programs.

I have attached a comparison between ALES, F5J and a simplified F5J that I call F5J-Lite -- for people who are allergic to all things FAI. In addition, I have attached a step-by-step comparison of running an ALES contest and a F5J-Lite contest from setting up a scoring program (in this case GliderScore) to assigning flight matrices, to running and scoring the contest. There are very few differences and none that really amount to meaningful "complications".

Whatever reasons, we might have for not, occasionally, flying F5J-like tasks, complexity IS NOT one of them.

And I will continue to remind everyone, that I have available a contest kit with 12 flight switches, 10 tapes and a copy of GliderScore for groups who want to give it a go.

Happy Landings,

Don

BTW: I realize that everyone has a "favorite" scoring program. I have used GliderScore because it works well for all formats, it is simple and IT IS FREE.

Correction: Item 24 on attachment #3 for ALES should read: "24. Pilots are allowed one 30 second motor run to launch to 200 meters".
Last edited by dharban; Jun 01, 2013 at 03:17 PM.
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Jun 01, 2013, 06:31 PM
WINS - Winch In Nose Sailplane
jaizon's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by dharban
There has been a lot written about the "complexities" of F5J vs ALES -- most of it not really accurate. Notwithstanding that, it IS possible to fly a "Lite" version of F5J pretty much the same way we fly ALES with the exception of measuring the Launch Altitude.

The F5J launch altitude is defined as the highest point reached between when the plane is released from the launcher's hand and 10 seconds AFTER the motor is shut off. In F5J the pilot is allowed to launch as high as he pleases understanding that he is penalized by 1/2 second per meter of launch altitude up to 200 meters plus 3 seconds per meter over 200 meters. The altitude is easily measured by a number of devices which are useful both for ALES and F5J.

F5J has rules pertaining to launch windows and such that, as far as I can see, are the only complicating factors in running a contest. The scoring is somewhat different, but the scoring differences are essentially transparent to scorers using available scoring programs.

I have attached a comparison between ALES, F5J and a simplified F5J that I call F5J-Lite -- for people who are allergic to all things FAI. In addition, I have attached a step-by-step comparison of running an ALES contest and a F5J-Lite contest from setting up a scoring program (in this case GliderScore) to assigning flight matrices, to running and scoring the contest. There are very few differences and none that really amount to meaningful "complications".

Whatever reasons, we might have for not, occasionally, flying F5J-like tasks, complexity IS NOT one of them.

And I will continue to remind everyone, that I have available a contest kit with 12 flight switches, 10 tapes and a copy of GliderScore for groups who want to give it a go.

Happy Landings,

Don

BTW: I realize that everyone has a "favorite" scoring program. I have used GliderScore because it works well for all formats, it is simple and IT IS FREE.

Correction: Item 24 on attachment #3 for ALES should read: "24. Pilots are allowed one 30 second motor run to launch to 200 meters".
An excellent, well thought out, contribution. Thanks.

Preston
Dec 28, 2014, 10:20 PM
Registered User
I like this thread.

เล่นบาคาร่าผ่านเว็บ
Dec 29, 2014, 01:31 PM
Registered User
Larry Jolly's Avatar
Don,
I agree with all your comments and thank you for this contribution. F5J is IMHO the natural progression for electric powered sailplane enthusiasts. I have been flying with CASL guys and have enjoyed the strategy involved in F5J flying.
Nothing to be scared of.
LJ
Dec 29, 2014, 02:02 PM
Team Hello Kitty
SoaringDude's Avatar
Don,

I've been doing quite a bit of F5J research and really like the format. I'll share one thing that came up when discussing how to integrate F5J and ALES into our local club in a possible single contest format. It's the issue of pilots that enjoy tracking their progress in the ALES League. To keep that compatibility you can't use any variant of F5J scoring.

To address that, one idea is to simply add an F5J flight group to an existing ALES contest and then score the F5J pilots separately. The idea is to do this for a few of these hybrid contests until the ALES guys catch on, then add F5J-only contests later like Phoenix is doing.

After every round in these hybrid contests you could print out the F5J accumulated scores and show the ALES pilots how F5J strategy differs in later rounds (in terms of more aggressive start heights).

And I give a big thumbs up to GliderScore: I've used it to score a number of "trial" F5J contests and used quite a few of their advanced filter features. Works great! As to its being free, I heartily recommend anyone using it make a donation to Gerry: his program is well worth it.

Chris
Last edited by SoaringDude; Dec 29, 2014 at 02:12 PM. Reason: its, not it's <g>
Dec 29, 2014, 05:46 PM
Registered User
Don,

I would very much appreciate it if you would bring your kit to Carlisle for the F5J portion of Practice Day.

Dave
Dec 29, 2014, 06:34 PM
Flying = Falling (Slowly)
dharban's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by dreisinger
Don,

I would very much appreciate it if you would bring your kit to Carlisle for the F5J portion of Practice Day.

Dave
No Problem.

Beyond that I would be pleased to take care of everything and refrain from flying it. I can furnish computer, printing, scorecards and scoring and anything else that may be needed (except the roast pig). In addition, I would be pleased to furnish materials to interested competitors in advance so they can be prepared.

We have time right now to identify interested parties and give them a little time to become familiar with the equipment and the rules. It would be useful to know how many guys are interested, how many guys need switches. I would be pleased to distribute switches individually a few weeks in advance to individuals to allow guys to get set up and comfortable with whatever switches they get. (I've got Sky Limits, Altis, and RC Electronics Switches) I had an experience on another contest where a user had trouble with getting one of the SkyLimits to work. I think it was attributable to how it was initialized, but whatever it was it would be better to sort all that out in advance than to eat up good flying time at the Polecat.

Happy Landings,

Don
Dec 29, 2014, 07:05 PM
Registered User
Sounds great, Don, thanks!

I'll put a post on the contest site and see who is interested.

Dave
Dec 30, 2014, 12:45 PM
E sailplane thermal hack
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoaringDude
Don,

I've been doing quite a bit of F5J research and really like the format. I'll share one thing that came up when discussing how to integrate F5J and ALES into our local club in a possible single contest format. It's the issue of pilots that enjoy tracking their progress in the ALES League. To keep that compatibility you can't use any variant of F5J scoring.

To address that, one idea is to simply add an F5J flight group to an existing ALES contest and then score the F5J pilots separately. The idea is to do this for a few of these hybrid contests until the ALES guys catch on, then add F5J-only contests later like Phoenix is doing.

After every round in these hybrid contests you could print out the F5J accumulated scores and show the ALES pilots how F5J strategy differs in later rounds (in terms of more aggressive start heights).



Chris

Great idea Chris!! It would give rookies like me a chance in ALES ,with the top dawgs doing F5J ,, and would be interesting to watch the pilots doing ALES.
You Gona suggest this idea to the powers that be in SVSS???

Jerry in Chico
Dec 30, 2014, 12:51 PM
Team Hello Kitty
SoaringDude's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Airman74
Great idea Chris!! It would give rookies like me a chance in ALES ,with the top dawgs doing F5J ,, and would be interesting to watch the pilots doing ALES.
You Gonna suggest this idea to the powers that be in SVSS???
Jerry in Chico
Hey Jerry, yes, it's being discussed. Glad it sounds good to you!
Dec 31, 2014, 02:31 PM
Proud member of LISF and ESL
Don,

I really like your comparison chart. With your permission I would like to include it in my weekly newsletter, giving you author credit, of course. In fact I suggest you edit the table to indicate that you created it and the date of last update. These things tend to get separated from their author and a date is always good.

Can you explain why your other two files are marked for F4J rather than F5J?
Dec 31, 2014, 02:48 PM
Theoretical balsa dust maker
plane_tech's Avatar
Why not also share it with RCSD for the next issue. It might help generate more support for the idea
Last edited by plane_tech; Dec 31, 2014 at 02:48 PM. Reason: typo
Dec 31, 2014, 05:13 PM
Flying = Falling (Slowly)
dharban's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by aeajr
Don,

I really like your comparison chart. With your permission I would like to include it in my weekly newsletter, giving you author credit, of course. In fact I suggest you edit the table to indicate that you created it and the date of last update. These things tend to get separated from their author and a date is always good.

Can you explain why your other two files are marked for F4J rather than F5J?
No problem. And I honestly don't give a hoot whether my name is on it. It would be nice if people who want to use it will refrain from taking credit for it. All I really want is for guys to give this a try. I think it will turn out to be fun for both experienced pilots and less experienced pilots. Let's face it, with any rule the best pilots are going to win. With F5J, they are still going to win. But to win THEY have to handicap themselves. And less experienced pilots can make choices that will lengthen their flights and increase their fun.

As to the F4J thing -- more thumbs than fingers I guess.

Happy Landings,

Don
Dec 31, 2014, 05:28 PM
Proud member of LISF and ESL
Even if you are not interested in credit for the document, if you put your name on the document people know to reach out to you with questions or to discuss.
Jan 10, 2015, 12:34 PM
E sailplane thermal hack
Here's a RE posting from SVSS club thread about F5J contesting, since it's being considered there :


Airman74
Registered User
USA, CA, Chico
Joined Feb 2011
3,280 Posts
I know ALOT of people are probably thinking this,, but,, not saying anything,, so,,, I might as well say it,, and take the heat ;-)

I've been doing ALOT of flying with Both my upgraded 2.3m molded scorpion AND my 3.6m pulsar with my limiters set in F5J mode,to get a feel for what it's like trying for ten minute task while picking my launch altitude. I've read that in Europe that the AVERAGE cutoff altitude is around 150m. After a good number of flights on BOTH my planes,, with cutoff altitudes ranging from a low of 140m, to a high of 237m (yikes :-O ),,,, I've come to a number of personal observations/conclusions about F5J.

1) F5J IS ALOT more interesting and complex than ALES, it allows for alot more strategizing .
2) guessing ones launch height by visual isn't as easy as it would seem at first glance, it least it isn't for me.
3) it IS much easier to avoid a deep stall at cutoff when you get to chose the EXACT cutoff point, DUH!!!
4) obviously making 10min from 150m is going to be ALOT harder than from 200m right???
So what this does, is place ALOT more premium on expert pilot skills AND more importantly to my main point here,,, the PLANE!! ,,,, the plane!! The plane!!,,,, sorry!! ,,,, couldn't resist ;-)
So I think what we'll be seeing in these comps is that they will be dominated by the super experts flying BIG expensive moldies like the 4m Maxas and Explorers and such. GREAT for the super experts flying the BIG expensive planes,,, but not so great for the intermediates and begginers flying the less expensive planes. Obviously the radians won't be NEARLY as competitive in this format. I can now understand why in Europe where F5J is more developed they created the F5J outrunner class that limits the wingspan to a maximum of 2.5m and limits the motor to an inexpensive small outrunner. This greatly reduces the cost of entry so to speak,, and again would allow the radians to be competitive. It lessens it from becoming a rich mans sport.
When I tried to convince my two soaring newbies here in Chico into trying F5J,, they had NO interest whatsoever. They viewed it as an experts rich guy comp.....,,,, and maybe,,,, rightfully so
:-O.
5) so,,,, in closing I'd like to say,, if we WANA keep newbies coming into soaring we REALLY need a logical progression of sorts in electric soaring comps.
ALES with maybe a separate category for radians ( sort of the everyday mans comp),,, and then,, F5J for the super serious,, long experienced well heeled pilots.
Personally,, even though I'm a HACK thermal flyer,,, I REALLY enjoy the process of LEARNING
To be better,,, so,,, I plan on flying BOTH F5J AND ALES. I find f5J REALLY pushes me,, and I like that,,, but do I really think I have a snowballs chance in hell of even coming remotely close to the scores of JT,LJ, Chris B., Dudley , Kipp, Ron, Mike,Marty, Aric !!!! No way man!!!,,,,,,, but,,,, I'm going to have a HECK of ALOT of fun flying with and LEARNING from them,,, even though I'll be at the VERY bottom of the pack... Just my 2cents,,,,,,, ok I'll go put on my fireproof suit now
And wait for the heat ;-)

Jerry in Chico


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