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Apr 03, 2013, 10:50 PM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanGold
I have a theory that an engineering teacher in China gave his students an assignment to each design a brushless gimbal.

I think most of us have read that what makes this all possible is the availability of new controllers and motors. Obviously putting those items together with mechanical pivots and platforms is not rocket science. We just have to wait a little while for them to be sold to see how they pan out in use.

I really like the idea of a very small one that can mount a GoPro to the front of my TBS Discovery. Whereas many of the other designs have the gimbal hanging underneath and would require landing gear to be added to the Disco. This Spidex one might do the trick for me.

^ same here, except for my qav500. would be nice to hover in a crosswind and be able for the gopro or nex5 to stay level. would also be nice to have the gopro/nex5 stay straight ahead instead of staring at the ground when going really fast lol

only bad part is the brushless gimbals and controllers cost a bit, and would make a crash with an FPV quad that much more expensive
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Apr 04, 2013, 05:44 AM
jab
jab
Unregistered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by serrated
there's hype and craze, yes, but brushless is definitely the way to go. no jitter and low resolution of standard servos. (digital helps, but for anyone using UHF, you get your resolution cut in half) stepper motors have ridiculous holding torque, but due to this torque, they jump very harshly from step to step. even microstepping isn't enough to make this a smooth option.
Actually a brushless motor is a 3 phase stepper motor. And when you rewind it for gimbals you do so to make it have better holding power, so it becomes even more like a regular 4 phase stepper.

SeismicCWave said it very well. It's the controller that makes this work by taking micro stepping to the next level and sacrificing torque in the process.. But the controller could just as well have been made for regular 4 phase steppers instead of rewound 3 phase brushless motors. But because of R/C, brushless is more easily available for cheap and at the correct sizes for our needs.
Apr 04, 2013, 05:51 AM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanGold
engineering teacher in China gave his students an assignment to each design a brushless gimbal.
Thats a fact.
Apr 04, 2013, 07:15 AM
AMA 869451 / FAA 13675
Quote:
Originally Posted by serrated
you should throw in prices and make it a chart
Great idea and I'll do that but I need some help from you guys as Old Dog
Grandpa started this thread because he was "confused!" LOL!


Whatever you co-authors post regarding additional info that you want in the
"first page" just post it and I will add it! Again, It is great to see you guys
(serrated, Seismic, Milo, Alan, Jab, Bob, albx, McCoy, Falling, Wraptor) are
interested enough to add to this thread and I appreciate your involvment.
Apr 04, 2013, 10:18 AM
Registered User
AlanGold's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by milo12

The other bigger difference is the brushless all carry hobby cameras. It will be fun to use my NEX or Gopro on a brushless but no one in Hollywood is going to care until it can carry a Red or similar camera which the Cinestar has done.
Well isn't that the point and the reason for the enthusiasm? Hollywood is already served and I just want to get a small lightweight inexpensive gimbal for my GoPro to mount on my Discovery. Was there anything like that available previously that performs as well as these new brushless ones are expected to do?

BTW I have professional uses for GoPro videos as my clients only want to post video work on the web or possibly at sales kiosks. So they certainly don't need a Red. Nor do they have Hollywood budgets. Plus I think one can do things with a small inexpensive quad that some might find too risky or difficult to do with a really expensive large system. Just as GoPros are commonly mounted in all kinds of locations and situations for TV shows. (And Hollywood movies too perhaps?)

Besides it is the only possible solution that I would get involved with at this point so why should I care that larger expensive systems are better? I am not shooting 8x10 or 4x5 film for my clients any more either. And this would be a good way for someone to learn to shoot aerial video before moving up to a larger system... if that is their ultimate goal.
Last edited by AlanGold; Apr 04, 2013 at 10:40 AM.
Apr 04, 2013, 11:20 AM
Registered User
Suprised no one has posted the coming Freefly systems gimbal:

http://www.freeflysystems.com/products/moviMR.php


http://vimeo.com/freeflycinema/freeflyroam
Apr 04, 2013, 11:22 AM
Registered User
AlanGold - Yes you are correct regarding the smaller cameras.

But, you missed my point. The Cinestar uses conventional servo driven technology. That is the exact same technology as a gimbal like the RusticCWave, which is reasonably priced, reliable and available today, uses. Buy one of those and use good servos coupled with a good controller like a Cinestar Radian or others and you can produce Hollywood quality aerial footage now.

People that are trying to make a quick buck are pushing the brushless BS while a better solution is already out there and proven. Don't fall victim to the "you need a new car every year" marketing mentality.
Apr 04, 2013, 12:33 PM
Registered User
AlanGold's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by milo12
AlanGold - Yes you are correct regarding the smaller cameras.

But, you missed my point. The Cinestar uses conventional servo driven technology. That is the exact same technology as a gimbal like the RusticCWave, which is reasonably priced, reliable and available today, uses. Buy one of those and use good servos coupled with a good controller like a Cinestar Radian or others and you can produce Hollywood quality aerial footage now.
You call it BS but that is not so if they turn out to be better and/or more affordable. How could you possibly know at this point which companies are only interested in making the "quick buck?" If a $300 gimbal works for me why should I buy a $1000, $1500, or $3500 one? And since I don't have a gimbal I can't fall victim to the "need a new car every year" marketing. I simply will observe the products and buy one that I feel is most suitable for my needs and budget. I hope the beta testers and early reviewers of these gimbals will provide me with the information I need to make an intelligent decision. So why disparage products most of which have not been released yet and presumably you have never used?

I am familiar with the specs on those other gimbals. They are much larger and more expensive than those we are discussing on this thread. A Cinestar two axis gimbal weighs 680 grams and I have no desire to fly a Red or my 5DIII. One other you mentioned is a do it yourself kit and is not supported in any way. I explored that option and to put it diplomatically, after asking what I thought were pertinent questions on a particular thread, I wouldn't go that gimbal route under any circumstances, despite what looks to be something I could assemble and adjust without difficulty.

I was strongly considering the AG600 which will support my Nex 6 and 16-50 lens. It costs $675 and requires the $375 Hoverfly control board. I'd also need to set up a larger machine such as their Shrimp. That does look like a very nice system. Then I started using my GoPro 3 Black and saw that it will likely do what I need at least for the time being. So the AG600 and your suggested gimbals aren't remotely comparable to what I am looking for to put a GoPro on my Disco. Yes I probably will buy a larger gimbal and ship at some later point. But how is that relevant since the ones you suggest in no way fill the need of what I and others are looking for now... to use on small platforms with GoPros? It is sort of like if I go to a car dealer wanting to buy a small pickup and they try to sell me a giant dump truck.

Besides, what if I already had a larger ship and gimbal and wanted a smaller one too. I remember going to a camera store to buy a specific small tripod and the salesman tried to get me to buy a larger sturdier one. Well I already had three large tripods.

And it seems to me that the hope also is that larger brushless gimbals will provide better less expensive solutions soon to replace the type you are suggesting.

The latest word from AG is they are not making servo gimbals any more. They are working on hybrid pulley versions that use brushless motors instead of servos and are also working on a new line of direct drive gimbals that don't use the belt system. So it seems they have concluded there is a better way to go.

Photohigher is also developing a new line of gimbals called "Halo" I bet other companies are revisiting their designs too.

http://photohigher.co.nz/products/halo-gimbals/ If using the Gopro is so unprofessional, why is Photohigher making such a high end 516 gram 3 axis gimbal for it?

Many here are hobbyists and RC enthusiasts not professional videographers. So is it that hard to see why so many are excited about the prospect of these new gimbals being "good enough" or even better and are also much less expensive than current options?
Last edited by AlanGold; Apr 04, 2013 at 03:55 PM.
Apr 04, 2013, 02:39 PM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by jab
by taking micro stepping to the next level and sacrificing torque in the process..
i'm actually the one who said you sacrifice torque with microstepping

Quote:
Originally Posted by jab
But because of R/C, brushless is more easily available for cheap and at the correct sizes for our needs.
cheaper? it's more the weight and form factor. price isn't any more. same with availability. you can get nema17 steppers from chinese vendors for $5 each. their casings are ridiculously tough (and heavy) to prevent warping of any kind since their applications are usually CNC or other precision use. form factor is an important key. most of our brushless motors for multicopters are outrunners. steppers motors are not. not saying you can't make them work... i hooked my steppers up to a pan/tilt when i was experimenting with them
Apr 04, 2013, 03:03 PM
hiphopapotamus
wraptor's Avatar
I think it's also important to remember that camera tech is rapidly evolving. GPH4 will be out in Nov and will probably be another major step up as it has done every year. Sony/Canon/Nikon/Etc also have smaller and smaller cameras coming out that record exceptionally good video/photo. The Phantom is quickly becoming ubiquitous and I believe sbg will be right there with it.
Apr 04, 2013, 06:08 PM
Registered User
AlanGold's Avatar
This really doesn't look like BS to me and I want it.

Spidex V.2 Testing the new brushless gimbal (RAW video, no post pro) (1 min 32 sec)
Apr 04, 2013, 06:10 PM
Registered User
v00d0o's Avatar
That looks awesome!!!
Apr 04, 2013, 06:35 PM
Registered User

Another gimbal source


sorry, double post
Last edited by repodog; Apr 04, 2013 at 06:38 PM. Reason: double post
Apr 04, 2013, 06:37 PM
Registered User

Another gimbal source


Don't forget askman and GGoodrum's gimbals. They are producing DD or hybrid gimbals - and with the background, experience and customer service they will quickly become favorites.

https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...errerid=392996


Should be on tppacks.com in a week or two.
Apr 04, 2013, 07:00 PM
Registered User
AlanGold's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by repodog
Don't forget askman and GGoodrum's gimbals. They are producing DD or hybrid gimbals - and with the background, experience and customer service they will quickly become favorites.
Yes, as I wrote above, I'm interested in AG's products too. It is just that this Spidex looks like a very good complete solution for me. However, if AG makes a GoPro gimbal that I can readily use on the front of my Discovery, that would be something I would also consider. And of course their larger products a little later down the line for me.


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