Questions about the Racing Rules of Sailing (RRS) - Page 97 - RC Groups
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Dec 05, 2017, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hiljoball
A hail of 'Hold your Course' is not in the rules. It is intended to be helpful, but it does not affect how the rules would apply.

John
Blue is slightly ahead of Yellow The only option is for B is to Tack or do a major duck of Y. Y Hails B "Hold your course I intend to pass astern of you". At this point in time Y is committing to voluntarily duck B. If B holds it course and Y makes contact with P then IMO S has broken Rule 2 Fair sailing "A boat and her owner shall compete in compliance with recognized principals of sportsmanship and fair play...." Telling a boat that you are going to so something and then not do it. is akin to calling starboard, when you are on port tack Case 47 Yellow is not acting fairly. IMO

And if Green Protests Blue I would think blue could bring Yellow to the protest room to verify that they had been given permission to cross.
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Dec 05, 2017, 04:02 PM
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hiljoball's Avatar
In your diagram 1, as Blue is Keep Clear boat and not ROW, R 19 Obstructions and R 20 Hailing for Room at Obstructions do not apply. So the incident between Yellow and Blue is one incident and the Blue/Green is a different incident.

I agree with you that in diagram 2, if Yellow hails for Blue to cross, and then hits him, then Blue would have a good case for an R 2 protest.

John
Dec 05, 2017, 06:32 PM
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KoneWone's Avatar

Rule 17 ?


Orange on a port comes from clear astern and "within two hull length" to establishes a leeward overlap on Yellow (Stbd) then Orange gybes to Stbd and starts trying to luff and calling on the now windward Yellow boat (on proper course) to hold it up ! ... who has what rights ?
Dec 05, 2017, 07:04 PM
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hiljoball's Avatar
Orange may sail on her current heading and Yellow must stay clear as windward boat R11.

Based on Orange's course there is no indication that her proper course is higher than the one she is currently sailing, so she should not luff up any higher while the overlap exists. R 17

John
Dec 06, 2017, 01:41 AM
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Murray C's Avatar
Hi KoneWone,

Your description differs from the diagram in that you say that Orange establishes an overlap and then gybes, whereas the diagram shows the overlap is established after Orange gybes.

Based on your diagram, John's response applies. Bear in mind that Yellow is still obligated to keep clear of Orange even if Orange breaks RRS17.

If we disregard the diagram and go by your description, RRS17 would not apply as the overlap would have been established when the boats were on opposite tacks. Yellow, as windward boat, would have to keep clear and Orange could luff to head-to-wind if she wanted (keeping in mind RRS16, of course).

So, in either case, Yellow has to keep clear of Orange and can protest if she deems Orange has broken RRS17.

An additional note - If, in the diagram, Orange gybed onto port tack after position 3 and then back onto starboard tack, without the overlap being broken, RRS17 would cease to apply.
Last edited by Murray C; Dec 06, 2017 at 01:50 AM. Reason: Additional note
Dec 06, 2017, 03:47 AM
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KoneWone's Avatar
Thanks guys & sorry Murray my diagram is wrong ... When RRS 17 does applies it seems that its just not logical if Yellow is obliged to keep clear & then protest, when it is in the right ... what is the reason for the obligation for keeping clear ?
Dec 06, 2017, 07:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hiljoball
In your diagram 1, as Blue is Keep Clear boat and not ROW, R 19 Obstructions and R 20 Hailing for Room at Obstructions do not apply. So the incident between Yellow and Blue is one incident and the Blue/Green is a different incident.

I agree with you that in diagram 2, if Yellow hails for Blue to cross, and then hits him, then Blue would have a good case for an R 2 protest.

John
John I know that blue is KC in both diagrams and obstructions do not come into play. I was trying to provide an example of where even as yellow is ROW and Blue is KC ROW could be protested, It would be a rare case and you better have good witnesses.

Separate incident yes if G protest B for what G thought was a rules violation between B and Y

Kone, you must avoid collisions rule 14. Even if Yellow is ROW and Orange is trying to luff her up in violation of 17, yellow must still keep clear and protest. If yellow does not keep clear and a collision ensues with damage Orange could be in violation of rules 17 violation, and yellow could be called for Rule 14 for failing to avoid a collision, and you both get DSQ

Also keep in mind that on overlap established from astern, orange must sail her proper course. And Orange's proper course maybe different than Yellows. Yellow may want to sail dead down wind, but orange thinks that sailing a little higher on abroad reach maybe faster to get to the next mark, at least thats the way I understand it.
Dec 06, 2017, 09:23 AM
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hiljoball's Avatar
Deleted
Last edited by hiljoball; Dec 06, 2017 at 04:29 PM. Reason: Deleted as info was wrong
Dec 06, 2017, 09:44 AM
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hiljoball's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcsmith
John I know that blue is KC in both diagrams and obstructions do not come into play. I was trying to provide an example of where even as yellow is ROW and Blue is KC ROW could be protested, It would be a rare case and you better have good witnesses.

Separate incident yes if G protest B for what G thought was a rules violation between B and Y
.
Hi Marc,

Just to summarise- in diagram one Blue is crossing on port. Yellow says hold your course and passes astern of Blue. Now Green also on stbd protests Blue on port under R10. Then you ask what happens if Green protests Yellow for not protesting Blue.

As far as I see, Yellow breaks no rules. All she has to say is that she put her bow down and eased her sails for speed and was going to cross astern of Blue and wanted to encourage Blue not to tack on her wind. If she adds that as a result of driving off for speed, there would have been no contact with Blue, then it is hard to see how a Protest Committee would penalise Blue for failing to stay clear, or Yellow for not enforcing R10 by protesting.

Just because Yellow asked Blue to hold your course, has nothing to do with Blue vs Green. Blue must still keep clear of Green, and may be protested by Green.

Just because Yellow hails Blue to hold your course - Blue does not have to comply - she could tack.

John
Last edited by hiljoball; Dec 06, 2017 at 10:02 AM.
Dec 06, 2017, 11:15 AM
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Murray C's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by KoneWone
When RRS 17 does applies it seems that its just not logical if Yellow is obliged to keep clear & then protest, when it is in the right ... what is the reason for the obligation for keeping clear ?
RRS 14 and 11.
RRS11 does not turn off just because RRS17 applies. Therefore Yellow, the windward boat, is required by RRS11 to keep clear of Orange, the leeward boat. If Orange infringes RRS17 by sailing above her proper course, her infringement does not exonerate Yellow if Yellow infringes RRS11 by failing to keep clear. Yellow would only be exonerated for breaking RRS11 if she was not able to keep clear at the time (eg. proximity of a third boat) or was not given room to do so when Orange was required by RRS 15 or 16.1 to give her room.

Murray
Dec 06, 2017, 11:27 AM
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hiljoball's Avatar
Adding to Murray's post - R 17 does not confer ROW - only R 10 through 13 do that.

R 17 is in the section that may modify a ROW boat's actions.

So the Keep Clear boat must still keep clear - and her remedy is to protest.


John
Dec 06, 2017, 12:09 PM
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Murray C's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by hiljoball
H Murray
I don't think you are correct - as the boats are sailing more than 90 degrees from the true wind, they are considered overlapped - even if on opposite gybes. What you are saying used to be true - but changed when the definition of Overlapped was changed.
John
Hi John,
I'm not sure what part of my interpretation you think is wrong. In his description, KoneWone says that Orange, on Port tack overlaps within 2 boat-lengths of Yellow, on Starboard tack. Orange then gybes onto Starboard tack and hails for Yellow to "hold it up".

In this case, RRS17 does not apply. As I said "RRS17 would not apply as the overlap would have been established when the boats were on opposite tacks."

RRS17 - "If a boat clear astern becomes overlapped within two of her hull lengths to leeward of a boat on the same tack, she shall not sail above her proper course..."

The diagram is different than the description.
At position 1, Orange is clear astern on Port Tack. Position 2 shows Orange after having gybed onto Starboard tack, but still clear astern. Position 3 shows the moment Orange establishes a leeward overlap within 2 boat-lengths of Yellow. At this point both boats are on the same tack (Starboard) and so RRS17 does apply.

As I stated, in regards to the diagram "John's response applies", then we must both think the interpretation is correct. Therefore John, the only other part you may think I am wrong would be in the additional note where I state "If, in the diagram, Orange gybed onto port tack after position 3 and then back onto starboard tack, without the overlap being broken, RRS17 would cease to apply."

RRS17 - "...she shall not sail above her proper course while they remain on the same tack and overlapped within that distance"


So, if Orange gybes onto Port tack after position 3, she is no longer on the same tack as Yellow. Therefore, even though the overlap was established from clear astern, the boats have not remained on the same tack and when Orange gybes back onto Starboard tack, she is able to sail above her proper course without infringing RRS17.
Dec 06, 2017, 04:31 PM
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hiljoball's Avatar
Hi Murray,. You are correct and I was wrong. Sorry for any confusion.

I have removed post 1448 so it does not give wrong info .

John
Dec 07, 2017, 08:32 AM
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If you high flyers can disagree after time to mull it over what chance do us mere mortals stand with just a split second.
Dec 07, 2017, 08:36 AM
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Murray C's Avatar
No problem John. When I first read the new rules, I thought that the change in the definitions had negated the effect of gybing onto opposite tacks on RRS17. It was only leading up to the IOM Nationals that I realized that it still worked as before.

Murray


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